Sub Attacks.

[Guderian1940]

It appears that sub attacks are stronger in this revision.

Has there been changes? I may have missed the info.

Seems improbable that they would attack destroyers and cause substantial losses. 3 or 4 points loss per attack seems quite high. As well they would not do it to conserve torpedoes for better targets. Sub attacks to naval units in ports is also very high.

Subs can evade more easily now that's OK but to wipe out destroyers is quite out of touch with reality.

[Taxman66]

Check the changes/notes from v1.11

The UK must invest in ASW, what you are describing sounds like Advanced subs 1 or 2 vs. ASW 0.

At higher levels it swings more in favor of ASW even when at parity (i.e. same level)

[PvtBenjamin]

I recently started a conversation on early sub/destroyers in "The War Room"

Current PBEM 1939 game 10 Allied destroyer (lv 0) attacks on German subs (lv 0) in stormy weather. 0 German Sub casualties 3 Destroyer Casualties. One might say why do keep attacking then?

Destroyers seem a little weak early with the changes, they improve considerably when you reach level 1 anti-sub. Very tough at level 2.

[Guderian1940]

Yes, this would be early in the war were they are at 0. Even at 1 they suffer too much in my opinion. Subs receive a high level of experience as they stay on the convoy routes. Destroyers not so much.

Tech on anti-submarine can take a long time to get as well as the time to get to port to update them on time. A concentrated effort by the U-Boats can reduce the number of destroyers significantly. Attacking destroyers and convoys at the same time is a bit much. I understand they use up supply etc. but nimble and dangerous destroyers should not be at this kind of disadvantage. Subs dive and get away that is fine but destroyers should not be taking the losses they currently do. It tends to become a gamey thing. IMHO

A good player can use his all powerful subs to block the Channel and basically destroy the RN in port and out while invading. Part of the Sealion issue as well.

[Taxman66]

If you put 2 chits into ASW relatively early you can get ASW 1 a lot quicker (2-7% to 5-15% and a 10% chance of breakthrough instead of 5%). More importantly before Germany starts massing Uboats from reinforcements.

The UK can also build a couple of motor torpedo boats which are cheap and very good (if short ranged) vs. subs even without ASW research; or the UK could build a maritime bomber.
Once you get the Canadian maritime bombers operate it over the UK or Egypt. It is a lot cheaper to operate than other planes, move it around as needed.

Tactically the UK should probably husband his few earlier destroyers and keep them in 1 or 2 groups instead of trying to protect all the lines at once.
Upgrade the UK light cruisers with ASW and they can join the sub hunting and be used against weakened subs.

Use the French destroyers aggressively. No harm in using their light cruiser on sub duty (at least for finding them) as well.

[PvtBenjamin]

I agree the sub changes may have gone to far for early Sub warfare but its manageable.

I use the 3 French Ships stationed in Western France to recon & block early on. If you are lucky you can ram the sub with the French Destroyer it will take the sub down 3-4 [X(]. In normal seas destroyer attacks sub at 1:1 (40% chance of dive). Once Brits get anti-sub lev 1 upgrade and send out in groups.

I have written ad nauseum about my dislike of Sealion as it currently stands and believe Channel Sub conditions/results should have some major modifications.