Dug in British infantry in Urban hex is a hard nut to crack

[KungPao]

Can you image a lone Platoon HQ team hold off a full-strength BMP-2 company for more than half hour, and claimed 3 infantry units before been destroyed? That happened in my game. I have finished a PBEM game as British, the game ended as a draw. But I got a feeling my opponent deserve a victory, he planned the bombardment well, conducted a brilliant maneuver, however his Battalion stopped by three dug-in infantry Platoon.

Scenario “Red Hammer”, it is 19:10, the turn before my move. During the Soviet turn the A Co was under concentrate fire. Then around 19:00, a T-80BV company pop out of the smoke. 3 BMP Companies followed the tank. With well planned timing every Soviet companies kept a distance at each other, so my mortar strike missed Soviet formation completely. When the Soviet turn ends the situation looks desperate, Soviet pass through the open field at the cost of 5 tanks, it looks like the 3 BMP companies have get into the last stage of charge, they have changed from a marching column into an attacking formation, each one is going to take an urban hex. 3/A Co lost every Warrior IFV and infantry squad, only a 4 men Platoon HQ team survived, 1/A Co in the middle lost all Warrior IFV, 2/A Co on the right had 1 Warrior IFV and 2 infantry squad left.

And a miracle happened, after 30min close combat 4 infantry squad, 2 HQ team and 1 IFV from A Co took out total 7 tanks, 17 BMP-2 and 28 infantry units….

[KungPao]

here is the screenshot at 19:36

1/A Co claimed 3 Inf
2/A Co claimed 16 APC, 18 Inf, 2 AT and 1 HQ
3/A Co claimed 7 Tank, 1 APC and 4 Inf

[CapnDarwin]

Even fixing a bug a few versions back that made small units a bit too hard to hit, you can still gather a unit that goes all commando on the enemy. Also possible that the 51mm mortars in the unit are a bit too effective for some reason. [X(]

[MaxDamage]

They have that ridiculous LAW weapon which can hit adjacent hexes. Its like a machinegun atgm at 1 hex distance which will destroy all vehicles extremely quickly.

But ofc this is unrealistic when you get scores like that.

[KungPao]

ORIGINAL: CapnDarwin

Even fixing a bug a few versions back that made small units a bit too hard to hit, you can still gather a unit that goes all commando on the enemy. Also possible that the 51mm mortars in the unit are a bit too effective for some reason. [X(]

So which version was the bug fixed? we are playing 2.0.14.

For the 51mm, yes, you are right

1913 hrs - 1/A Co : fires LAW-80 basic hit chance of (16%) against a Mechanized Rifle at a range of 500m / 245m
1913 hrs - 1/A Co : fires SA80 Rifle basic hit chance of (9%) against a Mechanized Rifle at a range of 500m / 245m
1913 hrs - 1/A Co : fires 51mm L9 basic hit chance of (37%) against a Mechanized Rifle at a range of 500m / 245m

but when it gets into point blank shoot out it lost its accuracy (or maybe it is the urban hex affect the hit chance)

1915 hrs - 1/A Co : fires SA80 Rifle basic hit chance of (12%) against a Mechanized Rifle at a range of 0m / 0m
1915 hrs - 1/A Co : fires 51mm L9 basic hit chance of (12%) against a Mechanized Rifle at a range of 0m / 0m

ORIGINAL: MaxDamage

They have that ridiculous LAW weapon which can hit adjacent hexes. Its like a machinegun atgm at 1 hex distance which will destroy all vehicles extremely quickly.

But ofc this is unrealistic when you get scores like that.

Fear the LAW-80, I used to get confused LAW-80 with American M72 LAW, but now I learned these two are different things.[8D]

1903 hrs - 1/A Co : fires LAW-80 basic hit chance of (24%) against a T-80BV [m] at a range of 500m / 242m
1903 hrs - 1/A Co (2 x Mechanized Rifle and 1 x Rifle Platoon HQ) in 1011 is engaging a tank unit (14 x T-80BV [m]) in hex 1010 at range 372m.
1903 hrs - 1/A Co claims 3 T-80BV [m] KIA in hex 1010

[Stimpak]

Yeah, infantry remnants are still difficult to deal with.


Although modded (stats don't differ much at all from Soviet Mechanized Infantry) for example, this Mot-Schützen unit was all that was left of the Company after being attacked by an attack helicopter squadron, cavalry squadron, tank company, and heavy artillery. Yet this single infantry unit in only 40% cover has managed to survive for at least two hours.

[TarkError]

ORIGINAL: KungPao

So which version was the bug fixed? we are playing 2.0.14.

It was fixed in 2.0.13. Let me paste the changelog explanation.

"While dealing with the bugs above, we found an old, deep bug with one of the unit size modifiers. This has been responsible for some of the overly hard to kill single units and in some cases the more brittle look of larger formations. The outcome of combat is now back where it should be. This bug may also be responsible for the difficulty of some weapons to engage air and helicopter units properly. Be prepared for slightly more NATO losses and slightly fewer Soviet losses in direct fire engagements."

[HeinzBaby]

With the above game your Brits might of jagged some lucky die rolls.... Ivan's Artillery Prep not long enough?..smoke?.. I dont know.

This is what I love about the Brits.
Their Infantry Companies are very solid.
Usually 3 Mech Inf squads + HQ and a Milan Plt of 4-5 launchers.
Each Squad has the LAW80 - the best squad LAW in game.

Compare to the average Panzer Gren. Company. Usually ONLY 2 Mech Inf squads! and a SINGLE Milan Launcher squad.
not to mention per squad, those surplus Panzerfausts from Berlin 45'...
The Yanks have the lousy LAW72's but at least their Infantry Companies have a larger ToE.

LAW80 - 47 HEAT - 4 area - range - 500m - 3 ammo
Pzf44 - 25 HEAT - 3 area - range - 50m - 16 ammo
M72 - 24 HEAT - 2 area - range - 150m - 11 ammo
RPG18 - 26 HEAT - 2 area - range - 200m - 6 ammo

Now I agree with the Brit & Soviet doctrine of their APC/MICV's, used as battlefield Taxis with a decent Auto Cannon.
The American and Germans have adopted the 'Glass Cannon' approach with their Brad's & Marders, trouble is everything is in one basket.
Start loosing these MICV's from Artillery and maingun fire and you've lost your ATGM, Auto cannon, and Taxis.

[Zakalwe101]

Lack of decent long range ATGM on Warrior is a major loss of versatility for the British, BMP's Bradleys and Marders had ATGM for good reason.

Warrior adds nothing constructive to winning the firefight at range. TOW armed Bradleys I submit are better than Infantry MILAN posts, twice the range, mobility and crew protection. Lack of an ATGM is not going to protect Warrior from Artillery nor main gun fire , in fact it's more vulnerable as it has no means to hit first from ambush nor strike back at range.

The "glass tank" arguement is popular with the Treasury and the Armoured corps who don't like the idea of someone else having long range AT weapons, cheaper than an expensive tank.

In game terms the Milan platoons are very strong, but talking to a colleague who served in an infantry battalion in the BOAR during the 1980's, MILAN posts were spread among the platoons, just as the GPMG SF's were.

2 inch mortars were also spread among the platoons, used primarily as smoke and illumination, they perhaps should be counted as Grenade launchers and give any unit so equipped smoke discharger equivalence, they are not the same as the us 60mm Mortar (no sight, no bipod).

60mm M255:3 Area Range 3500m. /60 ammo (SM IL )
51mm L9: 2 Area Range 800m. / 50 ammo (SW)

Maybe with Southern Storm (eagerly awaited)there will be the option to separate carriers from dismounts, so that APC's can be left to hide out of direct sight if you want them to.

[IronMikeGolf]

I've crewed M2A2's. I've shot a Warrior turret on a range. Vastly different animals when it comes to fighting these platforms. Realistically, I'd put the Warrior in a class by itself, somewhere between an APC and an IFV.

On shooting TOWs from a Bradley, keep the following in mind regarding survivability. From a decent position, the firing Bradley will unmask a launcher that is about 2ft wide and 1 ft tall and a sight periscope head that is about 18 inches wide and 10 inches tall. Hull and turret are in defilade. THis is extremely difficult to detect quickly, especially if moving. Hard to lase, owing to small cross section.

Firing a missile and displacing before arty impacts is not difficult. Two missile is not hard, either.

[Zakalwe101]

That's interesting what you say about getting off one or two shots then displacing, how far did you displace ? I presume if possible to scouted and prepared positions, I assume tanks do they same.

Firing the RARDEN gun on a range, how did it compare with gun fitted to Bradley ? what did you think of the manual loading of three round clips ?

How is this displacement handled by the game engine ? With the hex size though if you displaced less than 500m you won't avoid incoming artillery.

Being in screen mode could auto generate a displacement but not a controlled one, AI generated screen mode displacements I have found, on occasion, can lead to units displacing into obviously tactically worse positions or at least not a displacement to a position offering equal or better cover or still leaving you in a position to engage the same target.

The main down side to MILAN is the range issue, particularly when the preferred stand off is set at 5 hexes, meaning they can displace before firing a shot if set in screen mode.

[IronMikeGolf]

50 to 200 meters. You want to displace far enough that someone watching the launch signature smoke in high-magnification won't have you in field of view.

Warrior vs Bradley turret? My experience was Spring of 1996 at Bergen-Hohne. The 3 round clip. manual elevation control, and gun sight with both less magnification and cluttered reticle account for what I saw were much slower engagement times of Brit crews compared to American crews. At that time, one of my duties was to observe each crew in my Division conduct crew qualification in M2s and M3s. Part of the disparity was equipment capabilities and limitations. Part was doctrinal engagement techniques. When I shot, (at the Battalion Commander's generous invitation), I did show them a thing or two.

The displacement during direct fire engagements I am talking about is not specifically modeled in game, as such movement is in-hex. It is rolled into the posture modifiers.

[KungPao]

ORIGINAL: HeinzBaby

With the above game your Brits might of jagged some lucky die rolls.... Ivan's Artillery Prep not long enough?..smoke?.. I dont know.

I would say the Artillery preparation was super effective. From the log I can see my opponent concentrate all his arty on these 3 hex.
Before the arty strike ,I have 3 full strength platoon + 1 Striker ATGM platoon at 90+ readniess 90+ moral

after the arty bombardment and 125mm tank gun shell from a T-80B company, the ATGM platoon was gone,
3/A Co. 1 HQ left, 52 readiness 55 morale
2/A Co. 1 Warrior, 2 Inf, 55 readiness 37 morale
1/A Co. 2 Inf, 1 HQ, 45 readiness, 43 morale.

Then I saw all 3 platoon went to full Rambo mode, gave Ivan a bloody nose [:D]