hex control in china - hexes turn to natchi - game stopper

[jjdenver]

Our PBEM game is completely stopped. When Zhukov or any Soviet unit walks on hexes in Nationalist China in 1941, the hexes turn to natchi control and the Soviets cannot trace supply through them. Is there any version of MWIF that fixes this? We can't continue unless it's fixed.

Save game attached.

Thanks

[Courtenay]

The hexes turning to Nationalist control sounds right, assuming China has not been conquered, but the Russians should be able to trace supply through them.

[paulderynck]

Russians should need an HQ to enter as per FTC rules (even if the hexes were JP controlled), but Zhukov was mentioned so I'm assuming he entered first. If the hexes were Japanese controlled, then they should have become Russian controlled and MWiF does not support hex by hex reversion.

But unless Russia is at war with Germany she cannot trace supply through hexes that are controlled by other of the Allies. See 2.4.2 Tracing Supply, under Limits on Supply paths. So this could be all correct if the hexes were not Japanese controlled when entered. Which were they?

[Courtenay]

Oops. I was wrong.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Russians should need an HQ to enter as per FTC rules (even if the hexes were JP controlled), but Zhukov was mentioned so I'm assuming he entered first. If the hexes were Japanese controlled, then they should have become Russian controlled and MWiF does not support hex by hex reversion.
But unless Russia is at war with Germany she cannot trace supply through hexes that are controlled by other of the Allies. See 2.4.2 Tracing Supply, under Limits on Supply paths. So this could be all correct if the hexes were not Japanese controlled when entered. Which were they?

I think MWIF changes control back to the original owner at once. At least I think it does so if the MP isn't conquered.

Here is a example of a liberated hex from one of our games. Japan has conquered Solomon Islands. A US unit entered one of the Japanese hexes in the Solomon Islands and the hex reverted to CW control. See flag in the picture.

[jjdenver]

Japanese controlled

So we are done with the game?

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Russians should need an HQ to enter as per FTC rules (even if the hexes were JP controlled), but Zhukov was mentioned so I'm assuming he entered first. If the hexes were Japanese controlled, then they should have become Russian controlled and MWiF does not support hex by hex reversion.
But unless Russia is at war with Germany she cannot trace supply through hexes that are controlled by other of the Allies. See 2.4.2 Tracing Supply, under Limits on Supply paths. So this could be all correct if the hexes were not Japanese controlled when entered. Which were they?

I think MWIF changes control back to the original owner at once. At least I think it does so if the MP isn't conquered.

Here is a example of a liberated hex from one of our games. Japan has conquered Solomon Islands. A US unit entered one of the Japanese hexes in the Solomon Islands and the hex reverted to CW control. See flag in the picture.

Well this is a bug then, although I do have a foggy recollection that this only happens for territories. In our games, when the Allies landed in Occupied France, the hexes did not change back to French controlled. Or possibly it changes it back if the original entity is unconquered - still a bug!

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

Japanese controlled

So we are done with the game?

I played around with it and I can change the control with beta tools but would have to do it at the completion of each USSR land movement step wherein they progress further into China. Also the supply issues: ZHukov has to enter first and the other units can't trace to him as a secondary per the rule I mention above so when they move, they disrupt, also correctable with beta tools. But this would be fairly arduous for all involved.

It also opens a possible Pandora's box where changes like this could possibly cause the program to crash later on...

I suggest kluging in a manually enforced Mutual Peace.

[jjdenver]

thank you for the replies. hopefully steve can add this to his list of bugs.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Russians should need an HQ to enter as per FTC rules (even if the hexes were JP controlled), but Zhukov was mentioned so I'm assuming he entered first. If the hexes were Japanese controlled, then they should have become Russian controlled and MWiF does not support hex by hex reversion.

But unless Russia is at war with Germany she cannot trace supply through hexes that are controlled by other of the Allies. See 2.4.2 Tracing Supply, under Limits on Supply paths. So this could be all correct if the hexes were not Japanese controlled when entered. Which were they?

The Japanese controlled the hexes. The USSR is not at war with Germany.

I think the conversion of the hexes to Nationalist Chinese control is correct. I always try to use an easier example when considering these situations. Say Germany is holding a hex in France proper (in 1940) and the Commonwealth attacks and recaptures the hex. Does the recaptured hex become controlled by the Commonwealth or the French? I think it should be French controlled. Lille is a primary example. Would the British 'own' Lille under those circumstances? And France be unable to use its factories?

So, the program converts the Japanese controlled hex in China to Nationalist Chinese control. But the USSR is unable to trace supply through any hexes it so converts until the USSR is at war with Germany.

I am leaving this as the program being correct - no bug.

[paulderynck]

It may be Designer choice and thus no bug, but it is not in accordance with the rules. "Control of a hex changes when:
ï an enemy land unit (except for partisans ~ see 13.1, and supply units ~ see 22.4.10) enters it (the major power entering with the most factors if more than one); or
...
ï during the liberation step you return control to the original owner (see 13.7.5, reversion)."

In the rules quote "you" is obviously the present controller of the hex.

The hex reversion rule is not coded in MWiF, but it allows players to revert hexes when it makes sense to them to do so. The CW taking back Lille in 1940 is a very different situation than taking it back in 1944. The hex reversion rule allows the players leeway to do what they consider to be their optimal play.

Here we have a situation where the coding of the program prevents a player not only from making what they consider to be an optimum play, but actually penalizes them for it (albeit due to the supply exception rule for the USSR, which is coded).