Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Share your gameplay tips, secret tactics and fabulous strategies with fellow gamers here.

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

User avatar
MakeeLearn
Posts: 4274
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:01 pm

Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by MakeeLearn »

"If You Still Don't Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat, Watch This Video"


"But if things continue to go as they are, and with a catapult equipped Chinese aircraft carrier, and possibly a nuclear one as well, on the horizon, the days of America's outright supremacy on and below the high-seas may be coming to an end. "

A recently published video,

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21 ... this-video





Image
Attachments
imagesvc.t..capp.com.jpg
imagesvc.t..capp.com.jpg (67.89 KiB) Viewed 804 times






User avatar
Lokasenna
Posts: 9303
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 am
Location: Iowan in MD/DC

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by Lokasenna »

"But if things continue to go as they are, and with a catapult equipped Chinese aircraft carrier, and possibly a nuclear one as well, on the horizon, the days of America's outright supremacy on and below the high-seas may be coming to an end. "


No, not even close.
User avatar
durnedwolf
Posts: 896
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 5:05 am
Location: Nevada, US of A

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by durnedwolf »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

No, not even close.


yup - what he said.

DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer
User avatar
U235
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun May 07, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Chesapeake, Virginia USA

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by U235 »

The Chinese do not have the modern maritime experience of the US. It took a lot of trial and error on our part to get carrier operations right. The Chinese can copy blueprints and steal technology, but they can't steal experience, especially combat experience. The PRC has never engaged in modern naval warfare. They have a long way to go. Tonnage means little when it's sitting on the bottom of the ocean.
Rusty1961
Posts: 1239
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:18 am

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by Rusty1961 »

Carriers are probably obsolete in a real hot war, not in some regional conflict where the US has almost zero opposition.

The problem is is that the US Force Projection is predicated on CVN battle groups. The new technologies deployed by China and Russia probably would sink most if not all of our CVNs in the first day if they engaged in the first strike.

73 years for the CV was a good run, but submarine technology (AIP), mines, drones, hypersonic weapons, etc., pretty much spell the doom of the big ship.
God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal.
User avatar
Yaab
Posts: 5445
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:09 pm
Location: Poland

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by Yaab »

Imagine if instead of all those ships, rockets, and aircraft, the Chinese would have invested heavily in small hardcore cadre of die-hard arsonists who start fires in California each summer. Cant't the Chinese learn form the Japanese fire baloons of WWWII? Just saying...
User avatar
Lokasenna
Posts: 9303
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 am
Location: Iowan in MD/DC

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Imagine if instead of all those ships, rockets, and aircraft, the Chinese would have invested heavily in small hardcore cadre of die-hard arsonists who start fires in California each summer. Cant't the Chinese learn form the Japanese fire baloons of WWWII? Just saying...

Glad I wasn't actually drinking my coffee when I read this. [:D]
User avatar
Lokasenna
Posts: 9303
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 am
Location: Iowan in MD/DC

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

The problem is is that the US Force Projection is predicated on CVN battle groups. The new technologies deployed by China and Russia probably would sink most if not all of our CVNs in the first day if they engaged in the first strike.

Citation needed.

Anybody can say "probably." It's one of the BS artist's favorite words. Show us some studies to back up that claim.
Rusty1961
Posts: 1239
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:18 am

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by Rusty1961 »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

The problem is is that the US Force Projection is predicated on CVN battle groups. The new technologies deployed by China and Russia probably would sink most if not all of our CVNs in the first day if they engaged in the first strike.

Citation needed.

Anybody can say "probably." It's one of the BS artist's favorite words. Show us some studies to back up that claim.

My own hypothesis based upon historical trends and current technologies. Wouldn't really know "for sure" until a real shooting war broke out and I doubt we'd see that in our lifetime.

If you need insights to my hypothesis Google has lots of articles on Hypersonic weapons vs. CVNs or Submarines vs. CVNs. Ditto with drone technology.
God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal.
User avatar
rustysi
Posts: 7472
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:23 am
Location: LI, NY

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by rustysi »

Wouldn't really know "for sure" until a real shooting war broke out and I doubt we'd see that in our lifetime.

Really? I've no doubt its just around the corner.[:(]
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
User avatar
BBfanboy
Posts: 20301
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:36 pm
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Contact:

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: rustysi
Wouldn't really know "for sure" until a real shooting war broke out and I doubt we'd see that in our lifetime.

Really? I've no doubt its just around the corner.[:(]
Maybe in twenty years or so, when the only things worth fighting for are fresh water and food ... and that will be scarce. We need to figure out how to turn the extra climate heat into something we need, like electricity, so we can actually power all the electric cars we are supposed to have. Prognostication off! [8|]
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
Will_L
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 8:00 am
Location: NYC-Queens

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by Will_L »

I recall that they tried to build a 747 copy without the plans forty some odd years ago,
the engines weren't powerful enough to get if off the ground so it could only putter around on the runway.
was Will_L for a while.
User avatar
fodder
Posts: 2159
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Daytona Beach

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by fodder »

nope!
Image
User avatar
USSAmerica
Posts: 19211
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:32 am
Location: Graham, NC, USA
Contact:

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by USSAmerica »

ORIGINAL: fodder

nope!

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me

Image
Artwork by The Amazing Dixie
User avatar
Chickenboy
Posts: 24580
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
Location: San Antonio, TX

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

If you need insights to my hypothesis Google has lots of articles on Hypersonic weapons vs. CVNs or Submarines vs. CVNs. Ditto with drone technology.

So your 'insights' into your hypotheses are all based on Google articles? Hardly compelling provenance. I can find damn near any Google 'article' promoting any technology as a war-winning uber-weapon that I wish to find.

Rusty1961, you're an infrequent poster here-so let me give you some friendly advice about this forum. This forum is littered with some of the most knowledgeable people that I know about military matters, particularly naval operations. Many have served in submarines, surface ships and naval aviation in NATO (and non-NATO) forces around the globe. Your tone is coming off as very 'high-minded' and opinionated without the benefit of personal experience or primary research to back your point of view. Suggesting that others check Google for why the USN will lose out to the PRCN based upon untested and unproven technologies that may never get off the ground is an example. A friendly suggestion would be to listen more and argue (with poor references) less. It would go a long way to having people listen to your point of view.

Image
mind_messing
Posts: 3394
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

If you need insights to my hypothesis Google has lots of articles on Hypersonic weapons vs. CVNs or Submarines vs. CVNs. Ditto with drone technology.

So your 'insights' into your hypotheses are all based on Google articles? Hardly compelling provenance. I can find damn near any Google 'article' promoting any technology as a war-winning uber-weapon that I wish to find.

Rusty1961, you're an infrequent poster here-so let me give you some friendly advice about this forum. This forum is littered with some of the most knowledgeable people that I know about military matters, particularly naval operations. Many have served in submarines, surface ships and naval aviation in NATO (and non-NATO) forces around the globe. Your tone is coming off as very 'high-minded' and opinionated without the benefit of personal experience or primary research to back your point of view. Suggesting that others check Google for why the USN will lose out to the PRCN based upon untested and unproven technologies that may never get off the ground is an example. A friendly suggestion would be to listen more and argue (with poor references) less. It would go a long way to having people listen to your point of view.


That one does cut both ways. A lot of the people that fall under that catagory spent their days preparing to halting the Great Soviet Roadtrip to Paris.

It's worth noting that while most of the relevant areas haven't changed, some (very important) things have.
ORIGINAL: U235

The Chinese do not have the modern maritime experience of the US. It took a lot of trial and error on our part to get carrier operations right. The Chinese can copy blueprints and steal technology, but they can't steal experience, especially combat experience. The PRC has never engaged in modern naval warfare. They have a long way to go. Tonnage means little when it's sitting on the bottom of the ocean.

When was the last time the USN had a modern maritime experience? Vietnam? Iran?

Even then, those conflicts don't really add up to a modern maritime experience in the slightest - brown water conflicts against second tier naval powers.
Rusty1961
Posts: 1239
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:18 am

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by Rusty1961 »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

If you need insights to my hypothesis Google has lots of articles on Hypersonic weapons vs. CVNs or Submarines vs. CVNs. Ditto with drone technology.

So your 'insights' into your hypotheses are all based on Google articles? Hardly compelling provenance. I can find damn near any Google 'article' promoting any technology as a war-winning uber-weapon that I wish to find.

Rusty1961, you're an infrequent poster here-so let me give you some friendly advice about this forum. This forum is littered with some of the most knowledgeable people that I know about military matters, particularly naval operations. Many have served in submarines, surface ships and naval aviation in NATO (and non-NATO) forces around the globe. Your tone is coming off as very 'high-minded' and opinionated without the benefit of personal experience or primary research to back your point of view. Suggesting that others check Google for why the USN will lose out to the PRCN based upon untested and unproven technologies that may never get off the ground is an example. A friendly suggestion would be to listen more and argue (with poor references) less. It would go a long way to having people listen to your point of view.


Thank you for your sagacity, but I remember all the "Know it alls" in the military back in 2001 telling me how we'd be done with Afghanistan in a year when I was saying we'd never win.

Sorry, sometimes it takes an outsider to see a problem, not an insider.
God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal.
User avatar
AW1Steve
Posts: 14525
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:32 am
Location: Mordor aka Illlinois

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

If you need insights to my hypothesis Google has lots of articles on Hypersonic weapons vs. CVNs or Submarines vs. CVNs. Ditto with drone technology.

So your 'insights' into your hypotheses are all based on Google articles? Hardly compelling provenance. I can find damn near any Google 'article' promoting any technology as a war-winning uber-weapon that I wish to find.

Rusty1961, you're an infrequent poster here-so let me give you some friendly advice about this forum. This forum is littered with some of the most knowledgeable people that I know about military matters, particularly naval operations. Many have served in submarines, surface ships and naval aviation in NATO (and non-NATO) forces around the globe. Your tone is coming off as very 'high-minded' and opinionated without the benefit of personal experience or primary research to back your point of view. Suggesting that others check Google for why the USN will lose out to the PRCN based upon untested and unproven technologies that may never get off the ground is an example. A friendly suggestion would be to listen more and argue (with poor references) less. It would go a long way to having people listen to your point of view.


That one does cut both ways. A lot of the people that fall under that catagory spent their days preparing to halting the Great Soviet Roadtrip to Paris.

It's worth noting that while most of the relevant areas haven't changed, some (very important) things have.
ORIGINAL: U235

The Chinese do not have the modern maritime experience of the US. It took a lot of trial and error on our part to get carrier operations right. The Chinese can copy blueprints and steal technology, but they can't steal experience, especially combat experience. The PRC has never engaged in modern naval warfare. They have a long way to go. Tonnage means little when it's sitting on the bottom of the ocean.

When was the last time the USN had a modern maritime experience? Vietnam? Iran?

Even then, those conflicts don't really add up to a modern maritime experience in the slightest - brown water conflicts against second tier naval powers.


There was a little "modern Maritime experience" from 1948 to 1991 called "The Cold War". Perhaps you have heard of it? Many of us here were part of it. Just because your city didn't get nuked doesn't mean it wasn't a real war. Many of us lost friends and family in it. I was in it from 1975 till 1991 , and just about every member of my family served in it. Plenty of others who frequent this forum also can make the same claim. BTW your right , and wrong about tonnage. Tonnage doesn't have a thing to do with sinking something , but has everything to do with endurance. And to be able to take hits and continue punching back. That hasn't changed.

I've I can I give you a bit of advice....be very, very careful how you respond. Bad mouthing "Cold war warriors" will not make you very popular with such folks. They pledge everything they had, including their lives , for their cause. They probably won't appreciate or respond well to you or anyone else replying in a way that they might find demeaning. Just saying.
mind_messing
Posts: 3394
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:59 am

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by mind_messing »

There was a little "modern Maritime experience" from 1948 to 1991 called "The Cold War". Perhaps you have heard of it? Many of us here were part of it. Just because your city didn't get nuked doesn't mean it wasn't a real war. Many of us lost friends and family in it. I was in it from 1975 till 1991 , and just about every member of my family served in it. Plenty of others who frequent this forum also can make the same claim.

That one isn't far off thirty years in the past - long enough ago that the experience gained will be retiring out.

In any case, the Chinese should be only a slight bit behind then, having been engaged in their own regional Cold War with Taiwan and to a lesser extent thier other regional neighbours. Just because it didn't turn in to a shooting war doesn't mean it wasn't a real war, right?
I've I can I give you a bit of advice....be very, very careful how you respond. Bad mouthing "Cold war warriors" will not make you very popular with such folks. They pledge everything they had, including their lives , for their cause. They probably won't appreciate or respond well to you or anyone else replying in a way that they might find demeaning. Just saying.

It was not my intention to do so, merely to point out that things have changed with time passing, and that the experiences of denizens of this forum, in some respects, may not be as relevant today as they once were.

I don't think you can take too much umbrage to that...
User avatar
Lokasenna
Posts: 9303
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 am
Location: Iowan in MD/DC

RE: Think China's Navy Is A Serious Threat?"

Post by Lokasenna »

Not to mention that it's not like the USN hasn't been conducting combat or combat support operations constantly, on a global basis, for literally 70 nonstop years at this point. Regardless of whether or not you are counting playing games with the Russians during the Cold War.
Post Reply

Return to “The War Room”