Sub Activites--random thoughts

[DWReese]

I was playing the scenario "Landing Party" from the Silent Service DLC when something unexpected occurred. I had completed my mission and I had "almost" made it to the SAFE AREA when, unbeknownst to me, a ASW plane on a routine patrol happened to fly directly over my sub and detected it using a MAD sensor. Out of all of the places in the ocean this plane, that had no idea that I was even around, suddenly detects my sub and easily destroys it. Those MAD sensors are powerful. Using the Editor, I went back and replayed the same situation, this time placing the sub as deep as it could go. The MAD still detected the sub, so it would appear that MAD is a bad-ass sensor. That's just something to think about.

Also, I was playing the second scenario in the Northern Fury set of scenarios, "X-Ray Station", and my subs kept being detected (by passive sonobouys) and then destroyed. I could never see it coming. It was simply a torpedo suddenly coming out of nowhere. After trying about a dozen times, I reversed the sides to see what was always doing me in. Virtually the whole screen was covered with sonobouys. They were everywhere. They get dropped by numerous a/c and they are quite persistent. So, as I found out, you can easily stumble upon them and instantly be detected. This scenario has been out quite a while, so I am interested in hearing from others about some generic tips as to how to maneuver around scenarios like this when your sub doesn't even know that all of these passive sonobouys are even present. Is it just blind luck? (The "Gamechanger" from Silent Service presents a similar situation whereby you are tasked with trying to navigate close to a target and deal with a plethora of sonobouys.)

Doug

[Cik]

the dilemma's the same as with active missiles. you don't necessarily know that you've been fired upon until it's too late. so what to do?

the best you can do is pre-emptively mitigate your chances of detection and act as if you are being threatened constantly. this of course has it's own disadvantages as it restricts your movement options, but there is no real alternative. ideally, the mission briefing will let you know "hey, by the way there's going to be a bunch of ASW stuff operating nearby." but not always.

ultimately i don't know if you can do much against one sonobuoy, because you can't see them. but you can mitigate the chances of the whole net from getting you, at least a little by creeping, staying in the layer, and maintaining distance from probable sonobuoy sources / patrol areas.

[DWReese]

I understand what you are saying, but in this case it's sonobuoy-city. They are EVERYWHERE. Plus, is seems as though as soon as you get within 1-3 miles of the sonobouy itself, then it will detect you. And, if you could SEE them, then you could navigate around them. But, since you can SEE them, you are essentially driving blind.

I've noticed that with a SAG augmented with lots of a/c dropping sonobouys everywhere, then it will almost next to impossible (from what I have seen) to be able to get close enough to launch torpedoes against them.

Take a look at the scenarios that I mentioned, if you like, and you can see what I am talking about.

Doug

[SeaQueen]

I've noticed that with a SAG augmented with lots of a/c dropping sonobouys everywhere, then it will almost next to impossible (from what I have seen) to be able to get close enough to launch torpedoes against them.

So... what you're saying is that you're upset because someone built a layered ASW defense and you couldn't defeat it?

I'm not really sure what your issue is.

[DWReese]

No, I'm not saying that at all. On the contrary. I'm not upset with anything. I don't play CMANO to try to WIN. I play around with it because I like to see naval tactics in action. I would love to hear from someone with experience as to how to approach this type of situation. Perhaps there is no solution. I don't know. I assume that since others have apparently messed around with the scenario long before me, someone has likely dealt with this. If they have, then perhaps they have some insight.

[SeaQueen]

Don't use a submarine, use an aircraft, or use cruise missiles.

[DWReese]

Thanks for the input, SeaQueen, but I was trying to keep within the confines of what platforms/weapons are actually available in the scenario. In these particular scenarios you only have access to subs.

Thanks anyway.

BTW, just as MAD seems to be quite good at locating a sub directly beneath it, the passive sonobouys also seem to be very effective. If the sonobouy pattern completely covers the area, it seems to be exceptionally difficult to penetrate the ring.

Doug

[Sniper31]

Doug,

I am no sub expert by any means. That said, I assume you have attempted this both just above and just below 'the layer'? Also, what speeds are you moving your sub at in this scenario?

[SeaQueen]

Unfortunately, part of penetrating a sonobuoy field is just luck. I read somewhere that there was a Pacific submarine admiral who, when interviewing prospective captains said, "If you're not lucky we don't need you."

Since the only buoys you can see are active ones, you can never know for sure if you're being tracked. The only thing you can do is try to stay as slow and quiet as you can, and take advantage of the water column to minimize your enemy's detection range. The down side is that it also tends to minimize your own sensor performance as well. This is why a submarine's greatest enemy isn't surface vessels or other submarines, it's MPA. MPA can search a large area effectively and drop torpedoes on submarines without them having much time to react. In ASW scenarios, I never have enough MPA.

There are things you can do to frustrate your enemy, though. Change course regularly. It messes up their TMA. Change depths regularly as well (e.g. 30min deep / 30min shallow / 30 min periscope depth). Sensor performance depends a great deal on your depth relative to the sensor, so changing depths can cause them to lose contact.

You might not prevent them from dropping a torpedo, but you might prevent them from dropping directly on you.

[DWReese]

Thanks for responding.

SPEED: I have approached as slow as 2 kts and at every possible depth possible. The sonobouys just seem to automatically detect the sub as soon as it gets within the designated radius around the sonobouy. The speed can be defeated IF you know where it is (aka active), but if the sonobouy is passive, you have no idea where it is located and you could just keep closing on its location with no idea of your relative position.

Doug

[DWReese]

It's an interesting situation for sure.

If you only know that your enemy is generally in the direction that you are headed, you are in trouble if the enemy is using passive sonobouys. The sonobouys are not detected, and they immediately send a/c which essentially drop a torpedo right on top on you. The wall of sonobouys dropped leave little chance to be able to penetrate their screen.

Changing your speed and depth is something that I do often, and I have been successful dodging the active sensors, but the passive ones create a bad situation where you can go from creeping along and feeling good, to dead within 30 seconds.

As you said, if you don't know that you are being tracked, you're in trouble.

Doug

[Sniper31]

Okay, fair enough. I concur with SeaQueen in regards to constantly varying speed, depth, direction of movement, etc. Be as random and varied as possible.

[SeaQueen]

Think about it less as avoiding detection, you probably won't be able to do that entirely. Eventually, they'll detect you.

Instead, think about it as frustrating their attempts at localizing you. They might know you're there, but they don't know exactly where. I'd say still pop up to periscope depth just to get some situational awareness now and then. You want to at least know where the aircraft are. Your ESM mast and periscope should help with that.

[DWReese]

Thanks.

I have it set up again. From using the Editor I know that I am about 65 miles out, and I know that the group will be heading this way. From playing this (and others) I know that they will be flooding the area with sonobouys, and pretty much all will be passive. If I manage to get close enough to launch a torp before getting killed, it will be amazing.

I do wonder if sub captains ever just say "no, it can't be done." This is like walking into a buzz saw. Perhaps there are some rules or procedures that indicate that x-number of attacking subs must be present, and must use a certain tactic to be successful in a situation like this.

Moving toward a TG that has ASW air coverage is like charging across a field full of land mines trying to get close to the enemy.

Doug

[Sniper31]

ORIGINAL: DWReese


Moving toward a TG that has ASW air coverage is like charging across a field full of land mines trying to get close to the enemy.

Doug

Moving toward a TG that has ASW air coverage is like charging across a field full of land mines trying to get close to the enemy.

Well, as I said above Doug...I am no submarine expert But, I DO have plenty of experience on the ground as Light Infantryman to include dealing with some real world minefields. I can tell you that one does not charge through them, at least not in this day and age [:D] However, if one must negotiate a minefield, then one would pick their way through very very carefully. It's nerve wracking, sure, but it can be done. In the terms of a sonobuoy field though, they don't go boom like mines, but as you know, send out signals to the enemy. Something you might try, once you think you are close to being detected by a sonobuoy or you think you have been detected, is fire off a torpedo or two on bearing only launches. You never know, you might spook the platform that is hunting you and cause them to give away their position by suddenly increasing speed to evade your torps. Remember, as far as they know, you might actually have a position fix on them. Gotta start thinking outside the box

[SeaQueen]

I'm sure submarine captains will sometimes just report a target's location and not approach it if they think it's too risky. Sometimes I think the tendency is to act as though our favorite platforms are the ONLY thing which can accomplish a given mission. In fact, there's a lot of redundancy. Think of how many things can sink a ship! The idea is that there's lots of different platforms, they all have tradeoffs, different degrees of effectiveness. If one thing can't get them then another thing will.

[ultradave]

This is a REALLY hard scenario from the NATO side. I've looked at the Russian setup to see what had been killing me and you are right. I've never seen so many sonobouys.

Essentially I've tried to just creep, stay in the layer and hope I stumble into something to shoot at and have scored some losses, but also lost subs. It's a tough one and I don't think there's a "magic solution" that someone can give you.

[DWReese]

Oh, and I left out the fact that my "charging into the minefield" would also have to be done while wearing a blindfold. <lol>

Yes, I have fired off a torp as suppression fire in the direction of the threat (that is a real good suggestion, BTW) but after failing miserably so many times, I finally used the Editor to switch sides only to learn that each time (at least in these scenarios) the threat was delivered from the air. Hence, the suppression fire is a real good idea, but it doesn't work in this case.

Making a slow approaching seems prudent, but since the sonobouy detects you, and you are blind to this knowledge, you could actually be increasing your chances of being killed (to a certain degree) because the sonobouy can maintain contact with you longer so that the a/c can still find you once they get to the area. It's very perplexing.

Doug

[DWReese]

I think that your original suggestion of using other platforms may be the best solution, even though they aren't included in the scenario. <lol>

Given the circumstances, it would appear that it is a suicide mission if you actually try to get close enough to fire your torps. Heck, so far it's been a suicide mission even without firing off the torps.

I'm now trying out a new approach. I figure that whatever a/c are dropping these sonobouys have to run out of them eventually. So, perhaps it's better to wait and follow the TG for a while in hopes that the a/c will eventually run out or sonobouys or fuel. and that might afford me the opportunity of being able to get close enough to attack. As you said, the sub will have to pop up to periscope depth in an effort to assess how dense the a/c traffic above is.

The bottom line for this seems to be LUCK.

Doug

[DWReese]

I assume that you are talking about the Northern Fury scenario. The other that I mentioned, "Gamechanger" is equally as difficult for the same exact reasons.

Doug