The mobile immovable object

[cathar1244]

So I'm wondering about air interdiction strikes. Do they only strike units on the move?

I ask because I have a situation in which a non-mobile SAM battery gets hit by air interdiction strikes.

But this one may be down to an equipment database glitch. Here is how the unit looks:


Note the "motorized movement" comment about the unit.

Yet the equipment cannot move by itself:



No movement type is selected. Should the box "static" be checked?

I'm wondering, if because "static" is not checked, the game attempts to move the unit but cannot because the equipment has no defined movement mode (horse, motorized, etc.) And if that failed movement attempt identifies the SAM battery as a "target of opportunity" for an interdiction strike.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

In another thread, the idea was advanced that a unit had to move to be hit by an air interdiction strike. After some testing, I can confirm this is not the case. In a simple scenario with an infantry unit on one side and an air unit on the other side, the infantry unit was subjected to an interdiction strike without having engaged in any activity. This explains why the SAM unit mentioned above was hit by interdiction strikes as well. Essentially what happens that is the computer looks for "targets of opportunity"; any such targets will (or, perhaps, only may) be subject to an air interdiction strike. This sequence can be seen in the TOAW log file.

AIRCombat:
AIRCombat:Target of opportunity: Air Defenders 1st Formation, ADA Battery.
.
.
.
AIRCombat:Interdiction attack (bombardment): Air Defenders 1st Formation, ADA Battery.
AIRCombat:bombard:26900,defend:310
Combat :
Combat : Smite: Air Defenders 1st Formation, ADA Battery, (bombardment), attrition%= 9.
Combat : Air Unit weapons firing on Air Defenders Rifle Squad.
Combat : Potentially effective hit on Air Defenders Rifle Squad by Air Unit weapon.
Combat : Rifle Squad destroyed. (specificAttrit=10)

... and so on. I want to do more testing to see if interdiction attacks directed by the computer, and bombardment strikes directed by a human player, result in differing effects against a target in given conditions.

Cheers

[Lobster]

Looks to me like it says the target of opportunity was the ADA Battery. Isn't that true? Without knowing anything more than the little snippet it's hard to say what happened.

[Lobster]

This is all I know concerning interdiction.

9.1.4 Air Superiority and Interdiction
Units assigned Interdiction Missions will attempt to intercept enemy Land units when those
Land units move and also impair your opponent’s ability to supply his Force. Units performing
Interdiction Missions are subject to Interdiction by enemy Air units with Air Superiority missions
and are protected by friendly units with Air Superiority missions.
Interdiction is less effective in poor weather and on night Turns.

10.4.8 Interdiction Missions
If your opponent has any Air units flying Interdiction Missions, it is possible that your unit may
come under Air Attack during Movement. The chance for this is proportional to your opponent’s
Local Interdiction Level. Units on Roads or using Rail Movement are particularly vulnerable to
Interdiction Missions. Enemy Air units striking your units might be intercepted by your Local Air
Superiority effort, which in Turn are subject to attack by your opponent’s Local Air Superiority.

16.7 The Air Briefing
The Air Briefing gives a brief rundown of the current situation in the air over the Theater. It can
be accessed by clicking View and selecting Air Briefing.
Current Turn aircraft losses are listed in the Aircraft Losses pane. Only aircraft actually destroyed
are listed. You will always know your own losses exactly, but enemy losses are subject
to misinformation. Pilots are notorious for inflating and double-reporting enemy planes shot
down. Damaged aircraft (those sent to the Replacement Pool) are not included in the Loss
Report.
The Air Superiority pane shows the Theater Air Superiority levels, a general indicator of who
controls the air over the Theater.
The Interdiction pane shows both Forces’ Theater Interdiction Levels, a general gauge of each
Force’s efforts to impair enemy supply distribution and land unit movement.
Use the Control Bar Exit button to exit the window.

[larryfulkerson]

I want to do more testing to see if interdiction attacks directed by the computer, and bombardment strikes directed by a human player, result in differing effects against a target in given conditions.

I think that strikes directed by the player use their full strength but that a game engine generated strike uses only half it's strength. But that memory had a long way to go to surface in my brain...I could be wrong.

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Looks to me like it says the target of opportunity was the ADA Battery. Isn't that true? Without knowing anything more than the little snippet it's hard to say what happened.

Lobster,

Bad use of naming on my part. The "ADA Battery" in that snippet of log file is actually an infantry battalion with the infantry unit symbol and rifle squads -- nothing else. So the target of opportunity was an infantry battalion that did nothing, no movement, etc.

(New topic) Perhaps the game does some kind of SAM suppression ... but I wonder. There is nothing in the equipment definition, apart from interpreting the range of an anti-air weapon, that indicates use of radar by a SAM unit.

In two runs of the scenario with the air unit set to interdiction as a mission, it struck the infantry unit once on turn 2 and in the other run on turn 3 or 4. This could be a question of "is a spotted enemy unit a target of opportunity?" ... and it may be that units moving are higher on the strike priority list than those remaining in place. But yeah, units not moving can get hit by air interdiction as well. I don't see this as problematic behavior by the game, but it is a point of information that players should be aware of.

Cheers


The badly named "ADA Battery" of the log file snippet

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

This is all I know concerning interdiction.

9.1.4 Air Superiority and Interdiction
Units assigned Interdiction Missions will attempt to intercept enemy Land units when those
Land units move and also impair your opponent’s ability to supply his Force. Units performing
Interdiction Missions are subject to Interdiction by enemy Air units with Air Superiority missions
and are protected by friendly units with Air Superiority missions.
Interdiction is less effective in poor weather and on night Turns.

10.4.8 Interdiction Missions
If your opponent has any Air units flying Interdiction Missions, it is possible that your unit may
come under Air Attack during Movement. The chance for this is proportional to your opponent’s
Local Interdiction Level. Units on Roads or using Rail Movement are particularly vulnerable to
Interdiction Missions. Enemy Air units striking your units might be intercepted by your Local Air
Superiority effort, which in Turn are subject to attack by your opponent’s Local Air Superiority.

16.7 The Air Briefing
The Air Briefing gives a brief rundown of the current situation in the air over the Theater. It can
be accessed by clicking View and selecting Air Briefing.
Current Turn aircraft losses are listed in the Aircraft Losses pane. Only aircraft actually destroyed
are listed. You will always know your own losses exactly, but enemy losses are subject
to misinformation. Pilots are notorious for inflating and double-reporting enemy planes shot
down. Damaged aircraft (those sent to the Replacement Pool) are not included in the Loss
Report.
The Air Superiority pane shows the Theater Air Superiority levels, a general indicator of who
controls the air over the Theater.
The Interdiction pane shows both Forces’ Theater Interdiction Levels, a general gauge of each
Force’s efforts to impair enemy supply distribution and land unit movement.
Use the Control Bar Exit button to exit the window.

[cathar1244]

Lobster, check, I saw the passages you quoted. And they are probably accurate, but they do not seem to be a complete list of situations in which air interdiction can occur.

It is also possible that in most scenarios the program behavior I observe would not occur because there will only be so many air units assigned interdiction missions, and probably quite a few more enemy units moving that attract the attention of the interdiction missions.

My guess at this point is that any spotted unit is liable to suffer interdiction attack, but it may be that moving units have a higher priority to be attacked by interdiction strikes. That notion could be tested, but there won't be any indication in the TOAW log file to indicate why a particular unit was struck and another not. Might be interesting, though, to see if a moving unit gets ignored while a unit at rest is struck by air interdiction.

Cheers

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Lobster, check, I saw the passages you quoted. And they are probably accurate, but they do not seem to be a complete list of situations in which air interdiction can occur.

It is also possible that in most scenarios the program behavior I observe would not occur because there will only be so many air units assigned interdiction missions, and probably quite a few more enemy units moving that attract the attention of the interdiction missions.

My guess at this point is that any spotted unit is liable to suffer interdiction attack, but it may be that moving units have a higher priority to be attacked by interdiction strikes. That notion could be tested, but there won't be any indication in the TOAW log file to indicate why a particular unit was struck and another not. Might be interesting, though, to see if a moving unit gets ignored while a unit at rest is struck by air interdiction.

Cheers

It's been my experience that moving units passing through a hex that has an airfield almost always gets struck.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Lobster, check, I saw the passages you quoted. And they are probably accurate, but they do not seem to be a complete list of situations in which air interdiction can occur.

It is also possible that in most scenarios the program behavior I observe would not occur because there will only be so many air units assigned interdiction missions, and probably quite a few more enemy units moving that attract the attention of the interdiction missions.

My guess at this point is that any spotted unit is liable to suffer interdiction attack, but it may be that moving units have a higher priority to be attacked by interdiction strikes. That notion could be tested, but there won't be any indication in the TOAW log file to indicate why a particular unit was struck and another not. Might be interesting, though, to see if a moving unit gets ignored while a unit at rest is struck by air interdiction.

Cheers

It's been my experience that moving units passing through a hex that has an airfield almost always gets struck.

Aye, almost a sure thing if the other guy has interdiction assigned.

You know you can ask Bob about whether or not non moving units are victims of interdiction. [;)]

[cathar1244]

You know you can ask Bob about whether or not non moving units are victims of interdiction.

Lobster, heck, half the fun with TOAW is poking and prodding it to see what it is capable of. [:)]

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

After some testing, I can confirm this is not the case.

But if you are posting things that say what the manual describes is entirely untrue you give people a false picture of the game and it's mechanics. What you are telling people in the statement above is that the game does not function as they are told and there is some secret or unknown operation. Before you post things like that you should confirm it with the people who would know so an addendum can be made for the manual. You need to bring this up with Bob or Ralph, not post rumors.

[Curtis Lemay]

Guys, you know this: At the end of the player-turn, if the interdiction force hasn't done enough interdicting in the player-turn, they are used to attack static targets of opportunity.

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Guys, you know this: At the end of the player-turn, if the interdiction force hasn't done enough interdicting in the player-turn, they are used to attack static targets of opportunity.

Thanks Bob, that clarifies what I was seeing. And makes sense from a game function perspective.

Cheers

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

After some testing, I can confirm this is not the case.

But if you are posting things that say what the manual describes is entirely untrue you give people a false picture of the game and it's mechanics. What you are telling people in the statement above is that the game does not function as they are told and there is some secret or unknown operation. Before you post things like that you should confirm it with the people who would know so an addendum can be made for the manual. You need to bring this up with Bob or Ralph, not post rumors.

Lobster,

Bob has kindly explained what is happening. But to be clear, I did -not- say what the manual describes is "untrue"; I stated the text quoted from the manual was not a complete list of what could trigger an interdiction attack. No rumor involved as I verified multiple times that the program was behaving in that manner.

This is a forum to discuss TOAW and that is what I did. My comments were just observations. If any of my comments or probes of TOAW behavior go in a direction that Bob or Ralph do not wish to see in these forums, I will of course respect their wishes. If my comments gave the impression that I am trying to undermine Matrix customer confidence in TOAW as a product, I can honestly state that is not the case. I enjoy TOAW as much as anyone, but also enjoy testing the software to see how it behaves and of what it is capable. So why comment about what I find? Because what I find may be of interest to players and/or scenario designers.

Cheers

[larryfulkerson]

I enjoy TOAW as much as anyone, but also enjoy testing the software to see how it behaves and of what it is capable. So why comment about what I find? Because what I find may be of interest to players and/or scenario designers.

I for one would be querious to know what the game engine really does rather than what is thought to happen. I want him to keep going with his tests. Think I'll do some myself.

[Lobster]

I'll say this and that's all. In every case the manual says a moving unit is subject to interdiction. You said that is not true. "After some testing, I can confirm this is not the case." That says the manual is not giving us the correct information. I need say nothing more. Your statement says it all.

What would be clarifying is if you would let us know how Bob explained it to you. I'm sure many would be interested in knowing what had happened.

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

I'll say this and that's all. In every case the manual says a moving unit is subject to interdiction. You said that is not true. "After some testing, I can confirm this is not the case." That says the manual is not giving us the correct information. I need say nothing more. Your statement says it all.

Lobster,

There are misunderstandings here.

To put my "not the case" statement in full context:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

the idea was advanced that a unit had to move to be hit by an air interdiction strike. After some testing, I can confirm this is not the case.

And in fact, my statement is true. Furthermore, it does not imply that the manual is providing incorrect information; from what I see, the manual's descriptions are accurate. All I did is point out an additional situation in which a unit could suffer an interdiction attack. And I believe players and scenario designers might be interested in knowing that.

ORIGINAL: Lobster

What would be clarifying is if you would let us know how Bob explained it to you. I'm sure many would be interested in knowing what had happened.

I don't understand your comment. Bob's explanation is in this thread for everyone to see:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Guys, you know this: At the end of the player-turn, if the interdiction force hasn't done enough interdicting in the player-turn, they are used to attack static targets of opportunity.

To bring this back to the results I saw in the game -- the infantry battalion that had not moved was hit by an interdiction strike. Bob's comment makes it clear why this occurred, because there were no other units, moving or otherwise, for the air interdiction mission to strike (the battalion was a "static target of opportunity").

Cheers

[cathar1244]

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I enjoy TOAW as much as anyone, but also enjoy testing the software to see how it behaves and of what it is capable. So why comment about what I find? Because what I find may be of interest to players and/or scenario designers.

I for one would be querious to know what the game engine really does rather than what is thought to happen. I want him to keep going with his tests. Think I'll do some myself.

Larry,

I think it would be great if you tested as well. If you do so, please let us know what you find.

In general, TOAW is not so much a wargame as a system that allows us to model the interaction of various elements. The more we grasp about what happens under the hood, the more we can do with the model. I believe, given the tools that already exist, use of the TOAW model to simulate 20th century warfare is tapping maybe about 50 to 75% of software's potential. With the ability to modify counters, hex terrain appearance, and the equipment database, it may be possible to create really "out of the box" scenario designs. This is all opinion, of course. In the detail work of actually turning out such a scenario, one might encounter obstacles that can't be surmounted.

Cheers

[Lobster]

Thanks for posting Bob's explanation. I have seen this. It is not interdiction at all. It is merely bombardment. Interdiction is when moving units are attacked. Just like it says in the manual.

in·ter·dic·tion Dictionary result for interdiction
/ˌin(t)ərˈdikSH(ə)n/Submit
nounNORTH AMERICAN
1.
the action of prohibiting or forbidding something.
"the interdiction of the slave trade"
2.
the action of intercepting and preventing the movement of a prohibited commodity or person.
"the interdiction of arms shipments"