Air Battle Over Kashmir

[elxaime]

Just curious if the experts here have an understanding of what happened in the recent Pakistan-India air battle (February 27, 2019), which apparently involved 24 Pakistani v. 8 Indian aircraft and led to one at least aircraft lost on each side.

Some interesting articles. This one claims the upgraded Indian MiG-21 Bis is equal to the Pakistani aircraft involved, which were apparently either F-16's or JF-17's.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/in ... 6-analyst/

And here, a broader analysis:

https://thediplomat.com/2019/03/indian- ... na-factor/

[Cik]

i'm not sure if it's worth reading this kind of stuff, simply because unless there is raw, undoctored footage filmed directly from the battle area on both sides it is extremely hard to verify anything.

i don't particularly trust anyone, let alone india/pakistan to faithfully represent their capabilities, victories, and defeats, and i especially don't trust them to faithfully represent the actions of the other party.

like most modern wars, perhaps we will know what went down in 20 years, but probably not.

[Gunner98]

Control of the information spectrum is a huge part of any battle these days.

I think what we actually (probably) know is that an Indian AC was shot down - probably a Mig-21 Bison, the pilot survived and has been returned and is now the center of a media sh@@t storm.

Anything else is speculation, spin or conjecture.

[Ginetto]

Correct. One Indian Mig-21 shot down. Anything else is conjecture. A bit foolhardy at the end of the second decade of the 21st century to engage in air combat with a Mig-21, I think.

[Gunner98]

A bit foolhardy at the end of the second decade of the 21st century to engage in air combat with a Mig-21, I think.

Fair point but the Bison is not your 1960's Mig-21. They were built in the mid-80's, upgraded in the 90's. They have a radar that can track multiple targets, fire SARH (R-27, AA-10 Alamo), and ARH (R-77, AA-12 Adder) missiles. The Indian version has a helmet mounted sighting system for the R-73 AA-11 Archer off-bore-site IR missile, a tactical data link and improved avionics.

Some consider it equal to early block F-16s, the R-77 is the counterpart to the Aim-120 AMRAAM, the AA-11 is the Russian answer to the Aim-9X.

India has ~ 100 of them and they will be in service for another few years (2025 I think). I suspect that they're a lot cheaper to operate than the Mig-29s or Su-30s.

It was probably happenstance that put the Bison in the line of fire though. If it had been a planned operation I don't think it would have been.

B

[Ginetto]

Granted, the Indian Mig-21s are equipment-wise much evolved and improved versions of those the USAF and USN tussled with over North Vietnam 50 years ago. Even so, if they are comparable to early block F-16s, let's not forget that early block Falcons are now well on the north side of 25. Also, I suspect that while radically upgrading a C-130 or a B-52 is fiscally sound, doing the same to a light, high performance fighter is probably more iffy. In the dialect we use in Rome, we would call it "un accrocco".
All this to say that the acquisition by India of French Rafales is tardy as is the general refurbishment of their air superiority line.

[Gunner98]

well on the north side of 25.

Closer to 35 I think. Agree all particularly about acquisition. The IAF is still using Jaguars, Mig-27s and some fairly old Mirage as well.

Not sure how the Tejas will pan out - good effort to build a fighter from scratch but it entails a lot of risk.

[Gunner98]

A great article by Tyler Rogoway at The Drive:

Enough With The Indian Mig-21 Bison Versus Pakistani F-16 Viper Bullshit

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... r-bullshit

Echoes what was said above but with far better research.

[Dimitris]

This is the kind of nuance we need in any analysis of air combat, and air ops in general.

[kevinkins]

Tyleris great. He reports with analysis. He does not hide behind the news and gives his opinion based on experience. Tyler always lets the reader know to take everything with a "grain of salt". Even if the pictures he paints are often unlikely, they are alway plausible and interesting.

Kevin