Unit Breakdown

[Michael T]

I saw that only INF Corp can breakdown to Division size units.

I saw that there were some reasons for not allowing Panzer/Mech units to breakdown. I get that.

But how about adding a limited amount of Panzer/Mech Divisions to the force pools of some Nations. For example a couple of Panzer and Mot divisions for Germany so they can fight a operational
battle in North Africa. If the Germans have DAK in Africa that's just One counter. Allowing them to build the individual divisions would make for a more interesting battle. Same goes for the UK. Being allowed to build the 7th Armoured as a Division would be nice.

[Montbrun]

I could see allowing one armored division for Rumania and Hungary - they only formed one armored division each during the war.

The DAK initially had the 5. leichte Division (later the 21. Panzer-Division), the 15. Panzer-Division, and what later became the 90. leichte "Afrika" Division. This would definitely qualify as an armored corps. The Italians initially had the "Ariete" Armored Division, the "Trento" Motorized Division ("de-motorized" during late 1941, and converted to an AS42 division), and the "Trieste" Motorized Division. During mid-1942, the "Littorio" Armored Division arrived. I think that this would qualify as an Italian Armored Corps. Also there would be one or two Italian "leg" infantry corps. This is all pre-Alamein.

[AlvaroSousa]

This is on the list of considerations.

[Michael T]

Nice, thanks for looking.

[sol_invictus]

Can Soviet Infantry Armies break off an Infantry Corps?

[AlvaroSousa]

ORIGINAL: sol_invictus

Can Soviet Infantry Armies break off an Infantry Corps?

Until 1941 they had corps like the Europeans. After Barbarossa they have Armies. Basically the same thing except here is the difference.

You take a Germany, GB, or USA corps it is 2-4 divisions of 15k to 20k men each. So a corps is ~45-60k men.

You take a Soviet Army post Barbarossa it is 4-7 divisions of 10k men each. So a Soviet army is ~40-70k men.

In WarPlan the Soviets have corps on the map starting in 1939. They are not allowed to build them and you wouldn't want to anyways. They suck. Instead they build armies. They also can't build divisions because their divisions individually where not very practical or functional at 10k men each.

Those armies can be split into 2 smaller armies.

So the Soviets can have large armies and small ones.

[sol_invictus]

Ah ok. Good to know.

[Michael T]

So did the ability for some nations to build special case divisions make the cut?

i.e. Panzer and Mot divisions for North Africa?

[AlvaroSousa]

It did not due to a variety of "gamey" reasons I explored. But armies now can split into small armies. Soviet corps are slightly larger in strength than their Western European counterparts. So they can split in 2.

Doesn't mean the feature is off the list.

[Michael T]

Advance Third Reich/AWAW solved the problem by allowing a limited number of divisions to be built. So for example you might allow Germany to build 2 Panzer and 2 Mot divisions only. Total. So how could that be gamey?

[Michael T]

The Russian Front and The Western front work well with Corp sized units. But North Africa not so well. That's why games like A3R/AWAW and the combined games Brute Force/War without Mercy/Med Front (all basically Corp/Army scale) games allowed Germany/Italy/UK to build a small number of divisions for use in North Africa. Then playing the North African front became much more fun and fluid.

I can see how having too many division size units could be gamed. But a very small number could surely be implemented. That's a real lack of chrome in my book.

[AlvaroSousa]

If I come up with a way to ungameify it then it will be included in the game.

Originally WarPlan didn't have naval interception for the same reason. But I came up with a solution that didn't make it gamey. So now it is part of the game.

Gotta start small and work your way up.

[Michael T]

But what is gamey about being able to create 4 divisions? What can they do that is gamey?

[AlvaroSousa]

#1 it is unrealistic for single panzer divisions to run around in the rear on a game of this scale. If you play WitE this would be a single Panzer division every 3-4 hexes which doesn't fit the scale of WarPlan correctly.

#2 Splitting that kind of mixed unit is difficult because only 1-2 portions is an actual armored unit while the 3rd-4th is infantry.

#3 If the split is allowed it will disrupt the flow of the game as players will try to gamify surrounding to the point where it because a chore to defend against.

Right now the combat and exploitation are at a pretty good level where it works out really well. You have to plan an attack to accomplish things in the right way. Divisions are mostly there to represent a reallocation of resources to fronts you want to perform offensives on as the Germans or Defending small areas as the UK has many locations.

So far I have not found a way around these limitations.

[abulbulian]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I saw that only INF Corp can breakdown to Division size units.

I saw that there were some reasons for not allowing Panzer/Mech units to breakdown. I get that.

But how about adding a limited amount of Panzer/Mech Divisions to the force pools of some Nations. For example a couple of Panzer and Mot divisions for Germany so they can fight a operational
battle in North Africa. If the Germans have DAK in Africa that's just One counter. Allowing them to build the individual divisions would make for a more interesting battle. Same goes for the UK. Being allowed to build the 7th Armoured as a Division would be nice.

+1

I think it would be a nice future feature to have the Germans and/or British break down units or build armored units in NA. There always should be strength bonus to encourage keeping the larger unit together.

[AlvaroSousa]

It's still on the list so.

[Michael T]

#1. in WITE Panzer units can breakdown. Its not uncommon to see a broken down Pz Div covering 3 or 4 hexes.

#2 I am not advocating splitting. I am advocating for Germany and the UK to *build from scratch* 3 or 4 division size units to use in North Africa. Limited. Not dozens.

#3 That's an odd position to take. I can only assume your gaming experiences have been different to mine. I have played plenty of board games at this scale where they use smaller units in North Africa and they work a treat.

The whole point of this kind of thing is so that you get a much more realistic battle happening in North Africa with similar forces that were committed historically. A half dozen counters to push around is more fun than 1 or 2. It adds flavour. For very little cost IMO.

[Michael T]

I should add, this is a nice to have wish, not a game breaker.

[AlvaroSousa]

A WarPlan hex is 9-12 WitE hexes thus why a division tank would be tough.

[Michael T]

Surely you are talking area. Frontage is different. IIRC WITE is 10 miles per hex. So 3 regiments can cover 3 hexes. So 30 miles of frontage, same as Warplan. Besides you already have INF divisions. So you are saying it's ok for Infantry Division to cover one hex, but not a Motorised Division?