Hello all. I'm looking for the current thinking/ideas of what house rules you all are using for night bombing. We are playing Scenrio 2 campaign.
My opponent and I have reached April 1943. I picked up the allied side in Sep '42 from the previous player. Very few HR but one was no night bombing in 1942 with a clause to re-negotiate in 1943. I missed the renegotiate part and launched a night attack with HB against an airfield in the solomons along with a night naval torpedo attack with 100% moonlight (results below). Applicable skill (ground and torpedo) was in the low 70s. This brought up the discussion of negotaiating a night bombing rule for the rest of the game. Since it was surpise, there were no defenses. I launched all available HB squdarons in the area (about 7) and one Avenger Sq.
I've reviewed posts in the past, but many were several years ago before the latest updates, which seemed to have improved the game in this area according to some, but others still think night bombing is OP.
No discussion needed about whether or not to have house rule, I already agreed to that. I know many of you have played for a long time and must have some generally agreed/approved/accepted house rules which I am hoping you will share so my opponent and I can come to an agreement and continue the game.
His concern is it is OP and wants to limit it to make the game playable and fun. My concern is I'm way behind on points and have lost China and the Calcutta area of India, so I'm guessing he has more than the usual resources, which means I think I will be relying on night bombing against the home islands later on, assuming I can get there.
Thank you in advance for your thoughts on the matter.
Here are the combat results and comments from the Japanese player:
...here are the 3 combat reports from our game, basically I lost 16 planes on the ground for no loss to the bombers, and a DD almost sunk. However 2 of the air units are hit harder they also lost ca. 30-40% (!) damaged planes and suffered in one case a moral loss of 40%. Means not usuable for a while: Strangely all the damaged planes not in the combat report...These are 24 (!) bombers doing that much damage LOL
Night Air attack on TF, near Rekata Bay at 112,133
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Allied aircraft
TBF-1 Avenger x 12
Allied aircraft losses
TBF-1 Avenger: 6 damaged
Japanese Ships
CM Tsugaru
DD Takakaze
DD Niizuki, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
Night Air attack on Torokina , at 109,130
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 18
Japanese aircraft losses
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 2 destroyed on ground
D4Y1-C Judy: 2 destroyed on ground
J2M2 Jack: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed on ground
D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 4 damaged
Airbase hits 9
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 17
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Night Air attack on Torokina , at 109,130
Weather in hex: Light rain
Raid detected at 15 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 6
Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed on ground
J2M2 Jack: 2 destroyed on ground
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 9
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Current thinking on HR for night bombing
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
Night bombing of HI, LI, Manpower, Res, Oil and Refineries seems legit.
Ports - there should be some reflection of moonlight from water in the port to enable bombing.
Arfields, LCUs - no bombing?
Ports - there should be some reflection of moonlight from water in the port to enable bombing.
Arfields, LCUs - no bombing?
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
I think the night bombing code is a reflection of the need in the game to depict the night bombing of Japan's cities, specifically 'manpower', in the game. Therefore I prefer it to be limited to such, as otherwise it seems to be way to effective against other land targets. I know there are some here who will oppose that, but the reality of WWII night bombing shows otherwise. Heck early in the war it was damned near impossible to even reliably hit a city.
To add to that I would say that night torpedo bombing at sea by such aircraft as PBY's and 'Netties' would be OK. IOW naval patrol and twin engine A/C.
Just MHO, but how I would play a PBEM. No matter which side I would play.
To add to that I would say that night torpedo bombing at sea by such aircraft as PBY's and 'Netties' would be OK. IOW naval patrol and twin engine A/C.
Just MHO, but how I would play a PBEM. No matter which side I would play.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
Why are you wasting our time.
On the one hand you point out that being behind you will launch night bombing missions but on the other hand, to accommodate your opponents "need" to have a playable and fun game, night bombing is not acceptable, hence some rules are requested.
AE does not require any HRs to be fun and enjoyable. PBEM opponents can agree to anything they want but HRs are not necessary. Any HR always benefits one side over the other. For there is always a counter to any action. It is only lazy players who demand a HR to preserve their advantage.
IRL it was not fun for Japanese pilots to have to confront ALLIED Night Bombers. Nor for the civilians who experienced the night attacks. Poor, pitiful (cue in Linda Rondstat sp) JFB player who demands such assistance. Bet he doesn't refrain from availing himself of the ahistorical advantages which the game provides the Japanese player. Yeah great fun being able to capture Chungking
It's your game but you are wasting our time.
Alfred
On the one hand you point out that being behind you will launch night bombing missions but on the other hand, to accommodate your opponents "need" to have a playable and fun game, night bombing is not acceptable, hence some rules are requested.
AE does not require any HRs to be fun and enjoyable. PBEM opponents can agree to anything they want but HRs are not necessary. Any HR always benefits one side over the other. For there is always a counter to any action. It is only lazy players who demand a HR to preserve their advantage.
IRL it was not fun for Japanese pilots to have to confront ALLIED Night Bombers. Nor for the civilians who experienced the night attacks. Poor, pitiful (cue in Linda Rondstat sp) JFB player who demands such assistance. Bet he doesn't refrain from availing himself of the ahistorical advantages which the game provides the Japanese player. Yeah great fun being able to capture Chungking
It's your game but you are wasting our time.
Alfred
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
Although I am with Alfred on this, there are no house rules needed. However, the bottom line is that both players need to be happy and enjoy the game. If that means a HR or two, then both sides need to think on what they mean very carefully.
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
What we do in our game is no limitation on night bombing of HI/LI/manpower/oil facilities and factories. There also is no limitation on tactical raids (those aimed at ports or airfields) carried out by planes equipped with radar.
Tactical night bombing for planes without radar is limited to 50+ moonlight nights and three air units per raid.
Tactical night bombing for planes without radar is limited to 50+ moonlight nights and three air units per raid.
John Barr
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
Night bombing should only be allowed in the Aleutians and points north during the months of May through July ...[;)]ORIGINAL: John B.
What we do in our game is no limitation on night bombing of HI/LI/manpower/oil facilities and factories. There also is no limitation on tactical raids (those aimed at ports or airfields) carried out by planes equipped with radar.
Tactical night bombing for planes without radar is limited to 50+ moonlight nights and three air units per raid.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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Chickenboy
- Posts: 24648
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
ORIGINAL: Alfred
Why are you wasting our time.
On the one hand you point out that being behind you will launch night bombing missions but on the other hand, to accommodate your opponents "need" to have a playable and fun game, night bombing is not acceptable, hence some rules are requested.
AE does not require any HRs to be fun and enjoyable. PBEM opponents can agree to anything they want but HRs are not necessary. Any HR always benefits one side over the other. For there is always a counter to any action. It is only lazy players who demand a HR to preserve their advantage.
IRL it was not fun for Japanese pilots to have to confront ALLIED Night Bombers. Nor for the civilians who experienced the night attacks. Poor, pitiful (cue in Linda Rondstat sp) JFB player who demands such assistance. Bet he doesn't refrain from availing himself of the ahistorical advantages which the game provides the Japanese player. Yeah great fun being able to capture Chungking
It's your game but you are wasting our time.
Alfred
Alfred, your sage advice on this game is always welcome. These demeaning and insulting commentaries not so much. Please don't turn into other forumites that, in spite of their contributions to the game, were permanently banned from this forum for their acerbic and uncalled for nastiness against posters.
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Chickenboy
- Posts: 24648
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
ORIGINAL: mmoaorrke
Hi mmoaorrke,
Sorry for the unnecessarily harsh response of others on this thread. It's a perfectly valid question to ask other players about HRs on night bombing. And you're not wasting anybody's time.
My philosophy is similar to others above. Manpower, resources, oil, factories-fine.
Naval nighttime torpedo attacks-fine. Although their naval T / EXP skills will have to be quite high for effective attacks. Much moreso than daylight attacks.
Naval port and airfield bombardment? Iffy. In the early war, there were a number of examples of the poor results (and very high OPS losses) of naval bombing of Rabaul by B17s. It really wasn't worth it. Until bomb-through-cloud ground radar was in widespread use this was imprecise, wasteful and ineffective. So this needs to be tempered IMO.
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
+1ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: Alfred
Why are you wasting our time.
On the one hand you point out that being behind you will launch night bombing missions but on the other hand, to accommodate your opponents "need" to have a playable and fun game, night bombing is not acceptable, hence some rules are requested.
AE does not require any HRs to be fun and enjoyable. PBEM opponents can agree to anything they want but HRs are not necessary. Any HR always benefits one side over the other. For there is always a counter to any action. It is only lazy players who demand a HR to preserve their advantage.
IRL it was not fun for Japanese pilots to have to confront ALLIED Night Bombers. Nor for the civilians who experienced the night attacks. Poor, pitiful (cue in Linda Rondstat sp) JFB player who demands such assistance. Bet he doesn't refrain from availing himself of the ahistorical advantages which the game provides the Japanese player. Yeah great fun being able to capture Chungking
It's your game but you are wasting our time.
Alfred
Alfred, your sage advice on this game is always welcome. These demeaning and insulting commentaries not so much. Please don't turn into other forumites that, in spite of their contributions to the game, were permanently banned from this forum for their acerbic and uncalled for nastiness against posters.
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
I am the IJ player....so the AF was not overstacked it had more room for ca. 50 more planes even. It is size 5 has a few AA guns (18x8cm/8x10cm) and 2 or 3 radars. It also has 4 forts, but perhaps fortifications do only work vs. ground troops. Otherwise one would expect some protection also to the airbases and ports by forts (or does it only start at forts 5 - I beleive I suffered I bit less with forts 5).
Which counter is there to such night attacks ? IJ has 1 NF unit with 2(!) planes. And normal fighters at night do not work which was already established in older threads about this topic.
The attacking bombers suffered no losses at all but put 2 unit out of action totally (1 Nick unit and 1 Judy recon unit, the recon unit had 6 planes and is now left with 2 damaged ones, the Nick unit see below). 2 other units have now morale in the 70ties (from over 90) and have a dozen or so damaged planes, these are SR3 fighters so take a while to repair. Hitting at night a DD with a torp seems also doubtful. So without much risk one after the other airfields and perhaps also ports (incl. ships there) could be taken out. At day the Allies are already quite capable in doing this - but they at least may pay a price contrary to night actions it seems. At night the damage to planes based on the attack AF is even worse it seems, as they are all on the ground, while at day some (depending on %) would be in the air..
See also this recent thread 2 "veteran" posters suggest the same about 4E night bombing:
tm.asp?m=4669767
Which counter is there to such night attacks ? IJ has 1 NF unit with 2(!) planes. And normal fighters at night do not work which was already established in older threads about this topic.
The attacking bombers suffered no losses at all but put 2 unit out of action totally (1 Nick unit and 1 Judy recon unit, the recon unit had 6 planes and is now left with 2 damaged ones, the Nick unit see below). 2 other units have now morale in the 70ties (from over 90) and have a dozen or so damaged planes, these are SR3 fighters so take a while to repair. Hitting at night a DD with a torp seems also doubtful. So without much risk one after the other airfields and perhaps also ports (incl. ships there) could be taken out. At day the Allies are already quite capable in doing this - but they at least may pay a price contrary to night actions it seems. At night the damage to planes based on the attack AF is even worse it seems, as they are all on the ground, while at day some (depending on %) would be in the air..
See also this recent thread 2 "veteran" posters suggest the same about 4E night bombing:
tm.asp?m=4669767
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Chickenboy
- Posts: 24648
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
- Location: San Antonio, TX
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
ORIGINAL: Alpha77
And normal fighters at night do not work which was already established in older threads about this topic.
I know. Other players will put a slow FP (!) group as nighttime CAP. They swear that it reduces the effectiveness of enemy night airfield bombardment by decreasing the efficacy of the attack run. Also, by putting some slow FP group that can't climb to altitude, it reduces the number of defensive planes destroyed by the magical mystical B-17 gunner nighttime accuracy. The algorithm apparently applies the 'disrupted by enemy CAP' modifier for the bombers due to the slow FP fighter, but doesn't get around to decimating the FP CAP because the planes don't technically rise to intercept fast enough. Or some such. This is an approximation of my understanding of the mechanics from what I've heard over the years. YMMV.
My opinion? This is a silly work-around for a system that doesn't work well in this environment. That's why my games have HRs to avoid it. Eventually the Japanese *should* be making night fighters to safeguard against such raids. This should be a priority for 1943 or 1944.
But these posted results in no way reflect realistic September 1942 Allied attempts to bomb airfields or ports. For those efforts to mimic reality, OPS losses should be tripled or quadrupled, bombers that could not find the target tripled or quadrupled, A2A efficacy cut by 90% or more, accuracy of bombers cut by 90% or more, fighter CAP intercept intercept value doubled or tripled, AAA and radar efficacy increased. This is unlikely to occur through any change in game code. Hence the value of HRs on the matter. We can argue about the specifics (3x versus 4x OPS losses? Which is more in tune with the historical record?) but that's moving the deck chairs around on the Titanic.
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
Airfields are abstracted. Level 9 airfield does not mean one huge airfield with nine tarmacs, but can mean nine individual airfields in a hex. Think Port Moresby aerodrome during the war. Yet the code seems to treat them as one big airfield which equals more damaged aircraft on the ground.
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
The Japanese did use night bombing over Guadalcanal but with only a few bombers. The Japanese also tried night torpedo attacks. Have fun on a moving ship to try and find an unlit aircraft attacking you with your green wake showing where your ship is.
Day fighters flying at night can shoot down bombers. The night fighters reduce the bombers effectiveness. One B-29 model was designed as a night bomber with only the tail gun so it could shoot down more aircraft.
If you have an HR eliminating all night bombing, that means the Japanese will not have to deploy night fighters giving them more day fighters. That makes it even bloodier during the day.
The British and Germans used means to let bombers without radar hit area targets at night. Look up RAF Pathfinders and things like Gee, and Oboe.
Day fighters flying at night can shoot down bombers. The night fighters reduce the bombers effectiveness. One B-29 model was designed as a night bomber with only the tail gun so it could shoot down more aircraft.
If you have an HR eliminating all night bombing, that means the Japanese will not have to deploy night fighters giving them more day fighters. That makes it even bloodier during the day.
The British and Germans used means to let bombers without radar hit area targets at night. Look up RAF Pathfinders and things like Gee, and Oboe.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child-
Chickenboy
- Posts: 24648
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:30 pm
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RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
The British and Germans used means to let bombers without radar hit area targets at night. Look up RAF Pathfinders and things like Gee, and Oboe.
"Area" bombing in game parlance = "Manpower bombing". I don't think there's any arguments about disallowing manpower bombing at night. Also, Gee, Oboe and pathfinders were not used in the Pacific- certainly not in the early war. There were no such avigation aids for early war Allied bombing of point targets.
I agree that HRs eliminating ALL NIGHT BOMBING are unrealistic and will sway the air war to greater bloodletting during the daytime. So find a middle ground. Eliminating ALL NIGHT BOMBING probably isn't it. HRs are the way to do this, because game code won't be changed any time soon.
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
Anyone knows if the "DBB" mod has worked on tactical night bombing ? I play this one as Allied. Just tried 2 nights of attack waves to Pegu and Rangoon... seems the Japanese lost 2 Oscars at the ground. I got severall messages "stray due to night" also. The AI Japanese send also some Betties but they did nothing..here the report from the last 2 nights: Note also that the Welllingtons get no better result, even if these are the only true night bombers early:
Night Air attack on Port Blair , at 46,58
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid spotted at 68 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 6
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 3 damaged
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 23
Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 7
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Wellington Ic bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
77th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 16 on standby, 2 scrambling)
16 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Port Blair , at 46,58
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 34 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 4
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid detected at 13 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 23
Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 5
No Japanese losses
Allied aircraft losses
Wellington Ic: 1 damaged
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Wellington Ic bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
77th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 22
Allied aircraft
Wellington B.X x 7
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Wellington B.X bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
77th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 20 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 22
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 5
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Liberator II bombing from 15000 feet
Port Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
77th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 46 minutes
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
Wellington Ic: 1 damaged
Runway hits 2
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Wellington Ic bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes
Allied aircraft
Wellington GR.VIII x 7
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Wellington GR.VIII bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 250 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 16
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 16
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 3 damaged
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Runway hits 2
Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Liberator II bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 24 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 6
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Runway hits 2
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Allied aircraft
Hudson IIIa x 7
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 17 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 16
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 5
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Liberator II bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 14 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 14
Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 5
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Wellington Ic bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 49 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 9
Allied aircraft
Wellington B.X x 6
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Wellington B.X bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 41 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 6
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 8
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Liberator II bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes
Allied aircraft
Wellington B.X x 5
No Allied losses
Runway hits 1
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Wellington B.X bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 44 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 6
Allied aircraft
Hudson IIIa x 6
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid detected at 41 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 5
Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes
Allied aircraft
Hudson IIIa x 4
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 6
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 7
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Liberator II bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 21 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes
Allied aircraft
Wellington B.X x 7
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Wellington B.X bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Allied aircraft
Hudson IIIa x 5
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
These results seem reasonable... but still the Allies did not lose a single bomber, not to enemy and not to OPs....
Night Air attack on Port Blair , at 46,58
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid spotted at 68 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 6
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 3 damaged
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 23
Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 7
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Wellington Ic bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
77th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 16 on standby, 2 scrambling)
16 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Port Blair , at 46,58
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 34 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 4
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak
Aircraft Attacking:
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid detected at 13 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 23
Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 5
No Japanese losses
Allied aircraft losses
Wellington Ic: 1 damaged
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Wellington Ic bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
77th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 22
Allied aircraft
Wellington B.X x 7
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Wellington B.X bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
77th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 20 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 22
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 5
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Liberator II bombing from 15000 feet
Port Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
77th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 46 minutes
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 12
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed on ground
Allied aircraft losses
Wellington Ic: 1 damaged
Runway hits 2
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Wellington Ic bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes
Allied aircraft
Wellington GR.VIII x 7
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Wellington GR.VIII bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 250 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 16
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 16
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 3 damaged
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Runway hits 2
Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Liberator II bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
12 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 24 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 6
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Runway hits 2
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Allied aircraft
Hudson IIIa x 7
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 17 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 16
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 5
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Liberator II bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 14 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 14
Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 5
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Wellington Ic bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 49 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 9
Allied aircraft
Wellington B.X x 6
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Wellington B.X bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 41 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 6
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 8
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Liberator II bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 41 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes
Allied aircraft
Wellington B.X x 5
No Allied losses
Runway hits 1
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Wellington B.X bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 44 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 6
Allied aircraft
Hudson IIIa x 6
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid detected at 41 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Allied aircraft
B-24D Liberator x 5
Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x B-24D Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes
Allied aircraft
Hudson IIIa x 4
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes
Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 6
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 7
No Japanese losses
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Liberator II bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
CAP engaged:
31st Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 35 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 21 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes
Allied aircraft
Wellington B.X x 7
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Wellington B.X bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Pegu , at 55,53
Weather in hex: Severe storms
Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Allied aircraft
Hudson IIIa x 5
No Allied losses
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Hudson IIIa bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 lb GP Bomb
These results seem reasonable... but still the Allies did not lose a single bomber, not to enemy and not to OPs....
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
No scenario can change how the program works. It can only affect the data values.
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
Alpha77, DDB changed from dropping single bombs to sticks of bombs, thus reducing chances to hit.
tm.asp?m=3032153
tm.asp?m=3032153
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
The game engine has basically these problems with Night air actions:
1. The bomber gunners accuracy - it was confirmed that they are acting as it was full daylight often firing on fighters before they even see them thus damaging and driving them off (I had seen this to happen often to P-61s/F6F-N/Mosquitos NF, etc... too).
2. The bomb targeting accuracy - the more bombs the plane carry, the more chances to hit the target. The more planes on the AF means more targets available - thus bigger AFs can suffer catastrophic casualties under concentrated Night bombing (day bombing too if caught on land). Same with ships in port. Night bombing should really be inaccurate in terms of x10 or so (some Strategic bombing survey numbers for 1942/1943/1944/1945 accuracy of Day vs Night bombing?).
3. Operational tempo - is really huge, especially in the air - but affects both day and night. The units/pilots should really suffer high fatigue, especially on longer missions. Even if the squadrons did fly night after night, usually not "all out" was required of them. Even heavy bomber groups of the 8th AF based on perfectly supplied bases usually sent 18-21 bombers (out of 48 paper strength in 1943/1944). Imagine what it would be to maintain the planes on some tropical island where spare parts were obtainable only from wrecks around! Imagine one squadron of the group usually had a day off and the other three of them had each around 6-8 planes in commission each day at most (especially in 1942-1943 period). Now do you have a 50 spare for the night bombing of some pesky enemy base - sure not! Yeah and tell the crews they have to fly the mission from Guadalcanal to Rabaul and back every day for a week - 8-12 hours in the air every day - you'll probably have a mutiny on your hands by the end of that week.
4. Ops Losses - should really be high on the night missions, but this was one of the game decision to limit them considerably or the players would cry too much!
Well the basics to get a good compromise is to learn from history and to use the brains not egos.
Were there night bombing missions ? Sure, what they targeted? What were the numbers employed, what were the results?
In 1942 - till Allied got their fighters in range of Rabaul, this was target No.1 as even the B-17/B-24 were available in such small numbers IRL that they attempted only night raids. Targeting airfields or port facilities they had mostly nuisance value with occasional lucky hit (despite the grossly exaggerated claims).
In 1943 - Sure, Australian Catalinas doing nuisance work, Betties from Rabaul doing the same over Guadalcanal, etc.
Here the results were still pretty poor - higher altitude flown, number of planes being usually less than 10 per night (say one squadron assigned to night missions), untrained crews, usually no radar or not trained radar operators.
Cost was usually high unless the planes had the endurance to land in the morning - but even then the navigation wasn't the top, accidents happen (more so being kept up all night), higher fatigue, etc.
In 1944 the situation changed a bit:
- Brits in Burma used their Liberators/Wellingtons on night bombing sorties - usually on communication targets (like rails/bridges) that could be visible or ports that could be identified on radar screens, but keep in mind that 1944 the Bomber Command still got the first priority on any radar device available! Those available to Burma were usually old models, with questionable reliability due to tropical conditions. But beware, most of the GR Wellingtons/Liberators you see with radar devices in game are of the "Coastal Command" - mostly used on Naval Search, not on direct bombing! [:-]
- Allies started using Black Cats with radars and trained operators and got some pretty decent results - but the number of squadrons employed during night would be 1-2 with probably 6 planes in the air!
Counting in some Venturas used for night search/bombing the whole show in the pacific could count less than 50 planes per night in the air (doing all sort of things, ofc) - and more often employed on normal daylight bombing missions when the weather over target was not so good (but OK over home base) or Naval Search/ASW.
- Japanese lost the air superiority so they went to night work. They got some successes early on even on nights with the use of flares - even some US carriers got torpedoed this way (IIRC CVE lost and CV damaged?).
So still nothing substantial and more of nuisance value but with some good moments.
In 1945 it was another thing for the B-29s - The switch to the night work was a something really radical - yet the targets were cities, the altitude really dropped down (and the tonnage carried increased). Another use was for mining operations.
Beside that there was usually some work assigned to night bombers for nuisance/raid value to keep the enemy on the toes - Fleet used several TBM/TBF Avengers over enemy AFs during the night to cover any activity, A-20s/P-61s over enemy communications to cover any movements and several Naval squadrons keeping eyes on approaches to ports. The total aircraft at night other than night city bombing could go up to 100, but that would be spread out by 1s or twos all over the map.
E.G. - There was just a single Radar Equipped B-24 Liberator squadron in the SWPAC area - 13th AF in 1944 - 868th Bomb Squadron !!!
So use your planes in their primary missions and use Night bombing really as just complementary with spare resources and meaningfully - that means:
- Use PBY Catalinas, Venturas/Harpoons, PB4Y Liberator/Privateers, Wellingtons and GR Liberators on Naval Search, Night Naval Attack, very occasionally night port bombing.
- Use your B-17/B-24s to bomb AF/Port during the day, that's what they were built for.
- Use your B- versions of British planes (Liberator B, Wellington) on Night nuisance missions (not more than squadron strength per target I would say), mining, etc.
- Use your B-29-1/25s during the day to bomb Cities primarily, AFs secondary, B-29B could go lower at night and later mining. And really, no Ground Attack, please
- Use reasonable altitudes (@6000-10000 for light/mediums and @10k-20k for heavies)
- NO 50+B-26/B-25/B-24/B-17 at 2000ft at night on single AF/Port strike to nuke it out in 1942-1943!! No mission of this kind happened IRL[:-]
I believe in this way even the IJN/IJA resources of Night fighters would be still behind - the Endo Det of 2 J1N1-S is really the single night fighter unit available in 1942 and that arriving late. Other units sure follow but they are usually Restricted in the Home Islands anyway - so you wont meet many of them till 1944!
1. The bomber gunners accuracy - it was confirmed that they are acting as it was full daylight often firing on fighters before they even see them thus damaging and driving them off (I had seen this to happen often to P-61s/F6F-N/Mosquitos NF, etc... too).
2. The bomb targeting accuracy - the more bombs the plane carry, the more chances to hit the target. The more planes on the AF means more targets available - thus bigger AFs can suffer catastrophic casualties under concentrated Night bombing (day bombing too if caught on land). Same with ships in port. Night bombing should really be inaccurate in terms of x10 or so (some Strategic bombing survey numbers for 1942/1943/1944/1945 accuracy of Day vs Night bombing?).
3. Operational tempo - is really huge, especially in the air - but affects both day and night. The units/pilots should really suffer high fatigue, especially on longer missions. Even if the squadrons did fly night after night, usually not "all out" was required of them. Even heavy bomber groups of the 8th AF based on perfectly supplied bases usually sent 18-21 bombers (out of 48 paper strength in 1943/1944). Imagine what it would be to maintain the planes on some tropical island where spare parts were obtainable only from wrecks around! Imagine one squadron of the group usually had a day off and the other three of them had each around 6-8 planes in commission each day at most (especially in 1942-1943 period). Now do you have a 50 spare for the night bombing of some pesky enemy base - sure not! Yeah and tell the crews they have to fly the mission from Guadalcanal to Rabaul and back every day for a week - 8-12 hours in the air every day - you'll probably have a mutiny on your hands by the end of that week.
4. Ops Losses - should really be high on the night missions, but this was one of the game decision to limit them considerably or the players would cry too much!
Well the basics to get a good compromise is to learn from history and to use the brains not egos.
Were there night bombing missions ? Sure, what they targeted? What were the numbers employed, what were the results?
In 1942 - till Allied got their fighters in range of Rabaul, this was target No.1 as even the B-17/B-24 were available in such small numbers IRL that they attempted only night raids. Targeting airfields or port facilities they had mostly nuisance value with occasional lucky hit (despite the grossly exaggerated claims).
In 1943 - Sure, Australian Catalinas doing nuisance work, Betties from Rabaul doing the same over Guadalcanal, etc.
Here the results were still pretty poor - higher altitude flown, number of planes being usually less than 10 per night (say one squadron assigned to night missions), untrained crews, usually no radar or not trained radar operators.
Cost was usually high unless the planes had the endurance to land in the morning - but even then the navigation wasn't the top, accidents happen (more so being kept up all night), higher fatigue, etc.
In 1944 the situation changed a bit:
- Brits in Burma used their Liberators/Wellingtons on night bombing sorties - usually on communication targets (like rails/bridges) that could be visible or ports that could be identified on radar screens, but keep in mind that 1944 the Bomber Command still got the first priority on any radar device available! Those available to Burma were usually old models, with questionable reliability due to tropical conditions. But beware, most of the GR Wellingtons/Liberators you see with radar devices in game are of the "Coastal Command" - mostly used on Naval Search, not on direct bombing! [:-]
- Allies started using Black Cats with radars and trained operators and got some pretty decent results - but the number of squadrons employed during night would be 1-2 with probably 6 planes in the air!
Counting in some Venturas used for night search/bombing the whole show in the pacific could count less than 50 planes per night in the air (doing all sort of things, ofc) - and more often employed on normal daylight bombing missions when the weather over target was not so good (but OK over home base) or Naval Search/ASW.
- Japanese lost the air superiority so they went to night work. They got some successes early on even on nights with the use of flares - even some US carriers got torpedoed this way (IIRC CVE lost and CV damaged?).
So still nothing substantial and more of nuisance value but with some good moments.
In 1945 it was another thing for the B-29s - The switch to the night work was a something really radical - yet the targets were cities, the altitude really dropped down (and the tonnage carried increased). Another use was for mining operations.
Beside that there was usually some work assigned to night bombers for nuisance/raid value to keep the enemy on the toes - Fleet used several TBM/TBF Avengers over enemy AFs during the night to cover any activity, A-20s/P-61s over enemy communications to cover any movements and several Naval squadrons keeping eyes on approaches to ports. The total aircraft at night other than night city bombing could go up to 100, but that would be spread out by 1s or twos all over the map.
E.G. - There was just a single Radar Equipped B-24 Liberator squadron in the SWPAC area - 13th AF in 1944 - 868th Bomb Squadron !!!
So use your planes in their primary missions and use Night bombing really as just complementary with spare resources and meaningfully - that means:
- Use PBY Catalinas, Venturas/Harpoons, PB4Y Liberator/Privateers, Wellingtons and GR Liberators on Naval Search, Night Naval Attack, very occasionally night port bombing.
- Use your B-17/B-24s to bomb AF/Port during the day, that's what they were built for.
- Use your B- versions of British planes (Liberator B, Wellington) on Night nuisance missions (not more than squadron strength per target I would say), mining, etc.
- Use your B-29-1/25s during the day to bomb Cities primarily, AFs secondary, B-29B could go lower at night and later mining. And really, no Ground Attack, please
- Use reasonable altitudes (@6000-10000 for light/mediums and @10k-20k for heavies)
- NO 50+B-26/B-25/B-24/B-17 at 2000ft at night on single AF/Port strike to nuke it out in 1942-1943!! No mission of this kind happened IRL[:-]
I believe in this way even the IJN/IJA resources of Night fighters would be still behind - the Endo Det of 2 J1N1-S is really the single night fighter unit available in 1942 and that arriving late. Other units sure follow but they are usually Restricted in the Home Islands anyway - so you wont meet many of them till 1944!
RE: Current thinking on HR for night bombing
So in my Allies game I sent 2 more night attacks to Pegu and Rangoon...this time I got results. Seems ca. 20 planes destroyed on ground and roughly the same number damaged on both Rangoon and Pegu in 2 nights. I opened up the IJ side and checked the units.
Also the port attack was this time more destructive ca. 10 ships damaged. Finally suffered also 2 Ops losses. So for 4 nights sending out 30-50 bombers each night Allies suffered in total 2 Liberator as Ops losses. Seems amazing. But still could not replicate the destructive power of the bombers in the PBM taking out so many planes in 2 smaller raids...
Interestingly also the bad weather did not effect OPs losses also that the Hudsons were flying at extended range did nothing (zero losses) and fatigue was manageable too.
Here some examples of the more destructive raids (I noted that also the B17s fly at extended range - still no losses):
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid detected at 37 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 12
No Allied losses
Japanese Ships
SC Ch 6, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
TB Kiji, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAK London Maru, Bomb hits 1
xAK Montreal Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAP Miike Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Tokiwa Maru, Bomb hits 1
DD Asagiri, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Toyohasi Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
DD Sazanami, Bomb hits 1, on fire
Port hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 9000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 11
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 2 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Runway hits 7
Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Liberator II bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid detected at 27 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
Wellington B.X x 7
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-46-II Dinah: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-48-IIa Lily: 1 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 3
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Wellington B.X bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid detected at 49 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 7
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-61-Ic Tony: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-48-IIc Lily: 1 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Liberator II bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 5
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 3 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 9
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Wellington Ic bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
@ Barb: I think it is quite clear that in real life (war) tactical night attacks in 42+43 were not more than nuisance. Oth if they were not, both sides would switch totally to night attacks and day attacks would be an exception if the night missions were so succesfull (like in the game - and especially in regards to losses which are laughable)
Also the port attack was this time more destructive ca. 10 ships damaged. Finally suffered also 2 Ops losses. So for 4 nights sending out 30-50 bombers each night Allies suffered in total 2 Liberator as Ops losses. Seems amazing. But still could not replicate the destructive power of the bombers in the PBM taking out so many planes in 2 smaller raids...
Interestingly also the bad weather did not effect OPs losses also that the Hudsons were flying at extended range did nothing (zero losses) and fatigue was manageable too.
Here some examples of the more destructive raids (I noted that also the B17s fly at extended range - still no losses):
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid detected at 37 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Allied aircraft
B-17E Fortress x 12
No Allied losses
Japanese Ships
SC Ch 6, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
TB Kiji, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAK London Maru, Bomb hits 1
xAK Montreal Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAP Miike Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
xAK Tokiwa Maru, Bomb hits 1
DD Asagiri, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Toyohasi Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
DD Sazanami, Bomb hits 1, on fire
Port hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
12 x B-17E Fortress bombing from 9000 feet *
Port Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 11
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 2 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Runway hits 7
Aircraft Attacking:
11 x Liberator II bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid detected at 27 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
Wellington B.X x 7
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-46-II Dinah: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-48-IIa Lily: 1 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 3
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Wellington B.X bombing from 15000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid detected at 49 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
Liberator II x 7
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-61-Ic Tony: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-48-IIc Lily: 1 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 4
Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Liberator II bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
Night Air attack on Rangoon , at 54,53
Weather in hex: Clear sky
Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes
Japanese aircraft
no flights
Allied aircraft
Wellington Ic x 5
Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 3 destroyed on ground
No Allied losses
Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 9
Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Wellington Ic bombing from 9000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb
@ Barb: I think it is quite clear that in real life (war) tactical night attacks in 42+43 were not more than nuisance. Oth if they were not, both sides would switch totally to night attacks and day attacks would be an exception if the night missions were so succesfull (like in the game - and especially in regards to losses which are laughable)