Question about French AMX-30 series

[exsonic01]

I'm really enjoying playing French army around 1985+ time frame these days. Glass cannon tanks & a lot of ATGMs, hit and run, and ambush with mobility. These features makes me think harder to set up game plan when play against the wave of high tier PACT tanks like T-80Us and T-72B obr 1989. I didn't played as USSR or GDR or Pol against France, but I will try it soon.

I have a question about AMX-30. I only have very small knowledge towards French armors during cold war.

1) Thermal Vision availability for AMX-30B2.
I found that AMX-30B2 equipped with TIS only for HQ tank of platoon and company plus separate HQ tank from late 1980s game. All other 'normal' AMX-30B2s are not equipped with TIS. I check that such procurement status is still the same in 1991 game in AB.
Is this correct description on French armor during late cold war? Can you share any reference for this? I'm also curious how AB described this feature.
As far as I know, French army began their modernization from 1970s for their AMX-30s, which includes COTAC and COSTAC.
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom ... 0001-1.pdf
https://www.forecastinternational.com/a ... RC_ID=1109
Then, some of AMX-30B2 are equipped with Thales CASTOR thermal sight (DIVT-16).
https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/weg2001.pdf
https://www.benning.army.mil/armor/eARM ... 991web.pdf
I thought all AMX-30B2s of front-line Cavalry and Armored regiments of French army were equipped with CASTOR thermal sight, and leave rear area AMX-30B2s with night vision. But in AB, TIS is distributed to individual HQ tanks. Is this correct status of French army? I'm also curious about this.


2) Question about French army's doctrine for night battle.
Let's assume if 'only HQ tanks have thermal sight' is correct description of French armors. Then, was it possible for French tank sections or tank platoons able to perform "hunter-killer" tactics? Like HQ tank observe via thermal sight -> command other tanks to observe the suspicious region and engage if anything detected on their sight or night vision. Sometimes HQ tanks can roughly designate the target direction and distance with tracer bullet from COAX. I'm curious if French armors implemented such "hunter-killer" doctrine using limited number of thermals. I mentioned "night battle" but this hunter killer option doesn't stick to night battle. Rather, it can be method to maximize the merit of thermal vision for all platoon tanks. (Like faster detection against infantry and vehicle)
I know in AB it is not possible to describe "hunter-killer", because AB didn't described the proper info-sharing feature across units. (or is this possible to see hunter-killer algorithm in AB? in the future?) I'm asking about real historical French armors during Cold war. If real French armor had "hunter-killer" doctrine, then it totally makes sense to equip HQ the thermal sight and leave others when only limited number of thermal sights were available.


3) Difference between AMX-30B and 30B2
In AB, it seems almost everything is the same (except TIS of HQ) between 30B and 30B2. In AB, it seems that both are using the same APFSDS & HEAT ammo, and both have the same armor values against KE and CE. I only see the slight difference of offroad & training / morale. May I ask where this slight difference of offroad, morale, and training? Also, if 30B and 30B2 are the same tank, what is the point of upgrade for 30B2?


4) ERA for AMX-30B2
I'm really curious when French started to use ERA on AMX-30B2. Is the 30B2 with ERA called "brenus"? Right?

[nikolas93TS]

AMX-30 family use four different weapons in game, each with specific aiming and emplacement times, but that can be easily missed as there was only one designation change.

1) Original 105mm F1 with PH-8B infrared searchlight and M208 optical rangefinder. No stabilisation.

2) Around 1971-1972 a CH27-1S hydraulic turret control system was installed. Hydraulic motor controlled turret traverse while hydraulic actuating cylinder/shock-absorber maintained a constant elevation angle of the gun, but it was not a proper two-plane stabilization. The manufacturer of CH27-1S, SAMM (Societe d'Application des Machines Motrices) had previously done work with the Swiss Army in regards to the Panzer 61 retrofitting a prototype with a two-plane stabilizer with satisfactory results. Work on the AMX-30 began in 1968 and was completed sometime in the same year, however the French Army declined to purchase the system citing cuts in the defense budget. French export tanks like AMX-32 were often advertised with such system, making confusion in contemporary sources on actual capability of French vehicles. This variant has no proper designation, even if 12.7mm Coax MG was replaced with 20mm cannon in the roughly same period.

3) 105mm F1 gun on AMX-30B2. APX M581 COTAC (COnduite de Tir Automatique pour Char) FCS provides significantly faster aiming times, and DIVT-13 Low light level television was installed. Telescopic sight with integrated M550 laser rangefinder replaced M208 optical rangefinder. The gun was still not stabilized as CH27-1S was kept. AMX-30B2 also brought a series of other improvements on engine, transmission etc. In the same year (1982) OFL-105-F1 APFSDS was introduced.



4) Around 1988, DIVT-16 started replacing DIVT-13. However, while we were not able to find any official document on distribution, several former AMX-30 crew members said it was usually 1 thermal sight per platoon, given to platoon commander tank. AMX-30 and AMX-10RC sent to Iraq in 1991 were all issued thermal sights, but that was not the case in France as there was simply not enough upgraded vehicles to go around (those tanks were also issued GIAT / Lacroix GALIX smoke screen system, GPS satellite navigation system and EIREL, a SACLOS-type wire-guided missile jammer. Those tanks are often called AMX-30B2 Daguet, although there is no official name for such a modification). Somewhere in the 1990s, cheaper and less performing DIVT-18 was issued as well (cost was around 150,000€ compared to 400,000€ for DIVT-16) allowing for some regiments to apparently be fully issued, which was also helped by reduction in AMX-30 fleet size (and many sights were recycled for AMX-10RC tank destroyers). As for doctrine, I cannot find the relevant bit, but if my memory serves me right, I think it was some AMX-10RC crewmember who implied thermals were used for observation and for directing non-equipped vehicles into suitable position or for calling illumination.

As for AMX-30B2 BRENUS, it was first seen in 1995 and issued to units in 1997.

[exsonic01]

Thank you so much for your time and effort for this great & detailed answers!!!

Yeah, I didn't tried pre-1985 game for France, and I didn't particularly observed French tank specs in AB until recently. And I didn't that much studied French tanks before anyway, so I couldn't notice the differences among AMX-30s.
(I really wish AB creates encyclopedia as the one of the button in main menu & purchase screen of the game. Just make a list of units per nations or per tabs, and just show current unit specification windows. That should be good enough, and you guys could add more explanations or more specs later. Accessing to unit data base from main menu & purchase screen would be helpful for new players of this game.)

Your comments on stabilization and FCS was extra helpful. I'm sure AB already implemented the effect of aiming speed and gun accuracy while moving depending on those upgrades. I remember you once mentioned cold war French tanks were not that great on-the-move engagement, and now I can fully understand why. May I ask when did the AMX-30 series received two plane stab?


Also, thank you for your explanation regarding thermal. In the material I provided, US ARMOR magazine 1991 Jan-Feb, you could read this:

Some AMX-30B2s are equipped with a low-light television camera for limited visibility firing, much like the passive version of the M60A1. A very few AMX-30B2s are equipped with the "Castor" thermal sight; in this configuration the tank is somewhat similar to the U.S. M60A3.

Next page shows the how vehicle looks like via CASTOR thermal sight. Considering this article was written in 1991, I think this part nicely supports AB's description on TIS of AMX-30B2s and your description of cold war French army veterans. Could you share us the link of such books or forum post of French veterans?

ARMOR magazine also described about enhanced FCS of B2 variant:

The "B2," though based on the same hull and turret as the "B" is considerably more modern, having an automated fire control system and a "semiautomatic" transmission.

I think this means the COTAC upgrade like your answer.

Interesting points about Daguet. In fact, I also knew all gulf war AMX-30s had thermal sight, but I also know the lack of budget for "conventional" forces for French army is kinda chronicle problem, as they had to spend huge amount of DoD budget for their nuclear arsenal. So when I saw 1 TIS per 1 platoon, I thought you might know a good reason behind it. And now it seems it really make more sense.

Any plan to introduce AMX-30B2 Daguet version in AB as 1990 & 1991 only unit with more expensive price? But I guess description of GALIX smoke + GPS + missile jammer would be an issue for current AB, so it would be also OK to give thermals to AMX-30 and name it as Daguet and introduce in AB. They were not prototype anyway, it might be OK. But this is just suggestion, I'm OK with current French tanks at 1990 and 1991 and I will respect the decision of neglecting Daguet version.

However, those features of Daguet version might be helpful for the description of modern war with AB game engine, so it would be worth to try model Daguet and test it as a preparation for modern version of AB in the future. Just an idea, don't need to rush for this work. I know you guys have a lot of things to do.

Meanwhile, hunter-killer feature among different units would be interesting and important feature IMO. Plus, interesting to read about the memory of AMX-10RC crew. Does the current version of AB can depict or describe realistic hunter-killer tactics or doctrine?

AH-64A can do this with other AH-64A's guidance or FIST team's guidance. But AH-64A didn't have longbow radar, so AH-64A's detection ability would not be effective. Hunter-killer among Apaches were more used with the combo of 1 AH-64D and other AH-64As. But anyway, it would be great to see if AI use recon's information from visible sight / ground surveillance radar / thermal sight, with some sort of small bonus feature on detection or recognition with already-detected enemy by recon or other units in AB.

[nikolas93TS]

French AMX-30 never got a full stabilization, although AMX-30B2 BRENUS did got fully stabilized SFIM M527 commander's sight.

As for AMX-30B2 Daguet, it was not introduced for few reasons. First is that only 44 vehicles were deployed by 4ème régiment de Dragons, and outside of Europe.

Second is that electro-optical jammers are harder to implement than active protection systems, as they are limited to specific ATGM systems.

For example, Shtora (or to be more precise, TShU-1-7 electro-optical jammers, since Shtora is a name used for a suite of systems which include jammers, but also laser warning unit and automated smoke launchers etc), require a cool-down period which is necessary after a 30min use interval. But even when turned on, being an early 1980s technology, it is quite effective only against older SACLOS ATGM, including BGM-71A from 1969, both on M220 launcher (not produced since 1974) which doesn't have blinking beacon but simple IR flare and missiles fired from M220A1 (not produced since 1994) which have blinking beacon but on fixed frequency. Blinking beacon is randomly chosen from 999 possible combinations on launch. That mode works both with newer BGM-71D/E/F missiles as well with older BGM-71B/C variants. TShU-1-7 can intercept those only by luck, as rapidly shifting frequency mode is available but it is understandably less effective and dependent on hitting a right combination, which is a pure luck. Often quoted story on internet (but wrong) says Shtora use power of its jammers to create IR noise in targeting spectrum, but it is not true as that would require at least 6-7kW power output while each TShU-1-7 emitter works at only 1.6kW. In addition, M220A2 launcher can have an additional counter-measure in form of thermal sight, which allows another blinking beacon to be followed in 8-15 micrometer range rather than IR ~2-5.5 micrometer. This make newer TOW variants completely immune to Shtora. On the other hand, it is also useless against obsolete MCLOS missile, yet really effective against anything in-between.

[exsonic01]

44 vehicles... yeah, that is not a lot and I can understand why you didn't introduced them.

Thanks for the detailed information regarding SACLOS jammers. I think I read the effectiveness of optical guide jammers to early and late TOW models somewhere, but I forget. But anyway my knowledge is very similar with yours, and I also thought such features might be hard to be implemented in current AB. Anyway, thanks for the great information to read and think about!