amphib

[panzers]

I'm trying to invade Norway and my transports won't move.
Any reason why? I know on the original version I could, but not since I updated it

[AlvaroSousa]

I reduced the # of amphibs for Germany from 40 to 10 at start. That's why.

You can take Oslo with 1 division + air power.

[PanzerMike]

Alvaro, care to explain this drastic reduction of amphibs? I know the Germans used cruisers, destroyers, minesweepers and other (small) warships to ferry troops to Norway and that is not possible to do on the game. If I am not mistaken, total number of German troops in the initial invasion totaled around 9000. A division in warplan approximately. Is that the rationale behind the reduction?

[MorningDew]

I personally think it was a great change. It means Germany cannot invade both Denmark and Norway immediately, which I think is a good thing.

[AlvaroSousa]

It was due to Germany being easily able to do amphib operations early vs England and other locations.

I am considering making patrol groups also move and invade with divisions but I have to test it thoroughly because it can be very gamey.

Invasions should be VERY HARD to do.

Also the Norwegian campaign is incredibility difficult to create accurately in this scale game.

[James Taylor]

A good idea for the Pacific Al, the use of patrol groups(deliver divisions) will mirror what the "Tokyo Express" exemplified.

[James Taylor]

Come to think about it, those destroyers delivered their troops to a dock kind of condition and not directly to beaches.

[AlvaroSousa]

That's a good point.

There is the Tokyo Express already in the game... night mission -> resupply.

[Michael T]

On invasions. A player should need to plan an invasion in advance. It's the ability to just invade adhoc that is gamey and very unrealistic.

[AlvaroSousa]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

On invasions. A player should need to plan an invasion in advance. It's the ability to just invade adhoc that is gamey and very unrealistic.

That's one of the NO reasons on my list of reasons

[AlbertN]

I think it would do good to lower UK amphibious (and French) to 0 at the start of the war though.
Or they can way to easily snatch Narvik as soon as Germany invades Norway.

[Michael T]

I think it would do good to lower UK amphibious (and French) to 0 at the start of the war though

No. That is a step too far. No need for Germany to garrison any coast then for 90 days.

And how would stripping UK of Amphib stop them from just transporting Units to a friendly Norway if Germany attacks?

[tyronec]

quote:

I think it would do good to lower UK amphibious (and French) to 0 at the start of the war though


No. That is a step too far. No need for Germany to garrison any coast then for 90 days.

And how would stripping UK of Amphib stop them from just transporting Units to a friendly Norway if Germany attacks?

_____________________________

Because Axis should take out Norway in one turn, does that not flip Narvik before the Allied move ?

[AlvaroSousa]

Then buy 20 landing craft for Narvik. It isn't that expensive.

[aspqrz02]

Well, the Germans had, essentially, NO 'phibs at the start of the war and invaded Norway with warships carrying troops ... which were turned back by the Oslo forts which torpedoed the lead cruiser.

The remaining warships turned around and unloaded south of the forts ... but the coup de main against the King/Storting/Gold Reserves failed.

In fact, Germany had NO 'phibs until she started building them in 1940, which is why Sealion is, realistically, a no go ...

And the 'Amphibs' she 'built' were largely either Rhine River Barges which had such a low freeboard that even a medium level chop in the Channel would swamp them (as would the wake of an RN MTB or DD doing a fast pass by) or were horribly useless concoctions of Army bridging pontoon units that, on testing, broke apart in the one offshore test conducted. There were, IIRC, less than a handful, if that, of anything resembling a mid or late war Allied Landing Craft.

Oh, and the Barges were to blow their bows off! to land a handful of tanks in the initial plan AND they were so slow that they were going to take over 24 hours to get from the assembly ports to the invasion ports ... making them sitting ducks for at least 16 of those hours.

Unless the Germans start building 'phibs in 1939 (and, realistically, in a historical sense of actual available resources, not even then) there's no way they'll have any ready for Sealion.

Of course, historically, NO-ONE really had any 'Phibs in 1939 ... except for (IIRC) a handful of Higgins Boats and Amtracs being tested for the US Marines ... they did what had always been done to land troops over *undefended* beaches ... they used Transports and Lifeboats.

In that sense, that *may* be what Amphibs represent in the game ...

Phil McGregor

[aspqrz02]

It should be *more* that 'not all that expensive' and there should be considerable lead time as, really, outside the US, there were no real Amphibious Landing Craft designs TO build in 1939-40-41.

Phil McGregor

[aspqrz02]

Historically, NO-ONE had any Amphibious capacity in 1939.

Well, no LANDING CRAFT or the like.

They did what had always been done, historically, when they wanted to land troops ... they picked an undefended shoreline, transported the troops there aboard warships and ordinary merchant ships and the unloaded them over the beach in Lifeboats.

The invasion of Norway was to be conducted like that ... troops were loaded aboard warships and sailed blithely up the Oslofjord ... which was defended. The Oscarborg fortress torpedoed and sank the lead ship, the CA Blucher with considerable loss of life to the Germans ... the follow on ships were unable to bull their way past and so retreated and landed their troops over an undefended beach further south.

The coup de main attempt failed miserably.

To represent this, historically speaking, either you need to place a Mine marker in the Oslofjord, except that completely prevents movement ... which would actually be historical ... or place coastal defence markers on either side of the Fjord below Oslo.

I think, on balance, the Minefield would be more historically realistic.

Though, personally, I would prefer to see a Minefield not completely prevent movement but cause damage to anyone trying to traverse it ...

Phil McGregor

[AlbertN]

Problem in Warplan is that Germany cannot get to Narvik at all, not even if they prepare with enough Amphibs and the like.
So, if UK has Amphibious assets and just at least 1 division operational in Scotland that may invade... dang... 100% certain Narvik will get taken by UK.
Then best of luck to Germans go and dislodge what, over time, will be an entrenched corp up there - the investment itself in airbases required, and the like will be quite high.

TL:DR - Germany will never invade Norway at that condition.

Since there are no special rules to cover for Norway Invasion (as said and I reiterate, Strategic Command here handled it good - automatic event) - and to do special rules for that opens a can of worms; I think to just deprive Allies of 'amphibious' at the start of the game is the best solution to make Norway a viable option for Germany and not just an 'absolute no go'. (They do not -need- 1 VP off Oslo, and 1 Production Point, or 1.33 off Oslo is neither that much, if you consider then they have to garrison 5 ports. Even with 5 division of '39 tier, that's 300 PP and 50 Logistic points used to man Norway).

[AlvaroSousa]

There is a way to take Narvik and Oslo. You just havent thought of it yet and it is risky.

[AlbertN]

There is - to leave a unit in transport in the open seas with some escort or so for 1 turn, and invade the turn after.
Extremely risky.
As probably the Royan Navy shows up - and sets ready to interdict invasions around Narvik and the like.
Planning around an 'Interception failed' result?


One could even invade Sweden first and then hop into Narvik after from Sweden.
Not really smart. But it's a way.