Sub war

[jjdenver]

I'm at last turn of 39 and the Subs are devastating my convoy lines. They are not only sinking 3-6 merchant marine a turn but also sinking an escort about every other turn.

I have spent all CW production to build 2 more escorts, there isn't enough to do more. I've put every CW INF unit on garrison to save production or whatever it saves.

I have all French and CW escorts on duty - 10 in N Atl and others scattered on other lines they seem to be raiding (S. Atlantic).

What else should I be doing? Anything that can be done? Subs seem OP - what kind of strategy can be followed?

Here is a sort of typical turn attached. Is there something I need to be doing with my regular navy other than sending out escorts using the convoy panel? If this goes on Brits will literally have every merchant marine and escort sunk by mid of 1940 and they don't make enough income to buy anything other than 2 escorts in 1939 so I'm not sure how they can survive at all?

Thanks

[AlbertN]

The P32 is surely your own submarine that sunk in the NORDIC IRON ORE lane German shipping and 1 escort.

It would be good if things are split - but only the U8 results are German subs vs your shipping.

[Journier]

just as the brits did in real life, your gonna have to buckle up and pull yourself up by your boot straps and throw your escorts on the southern atlantic convoy route, after a few weeks, i noticed the subs to be far less irritating due to them being damaged constantly.

and make sure your bombers are on naval patrol and make sure to pump research into convoy escort early on for a few levels, helps tremendously. Allies are late game powerhouse of production after 42.

how many escorts do you have left? you start with a sizeable amount to begin with, you gotta catch the subs in the lane they are sitting in and pump up the escorts in the lane they are attacking to have a noticeable effect.

you can attempt to annoy the subs also by sending out your carriers to chase them down every time you see them.

[Michael T]

Things seem to be bouncing around all over the place lately. Every patch seems to mean relearning certain aspects of the game. At first flak was lame. Now its OP. First subs were lame. Now they are OP. Air Units were wiping out units. Now they suffer terribly v Flak and so it goes.

I wish the tweaks were less brutal and a little more measured or subtle.

I mean for example the Sub war. Alvaro argued at length how it was ok and we needed to just learn how to use them better. Then suddenly escorts are less effective, less escorts to start with, subs more effective, subs reduced by almost half to build.

Why suddenly hit the problem so hard? Any one of the things above could have been implemented on there own and then access. All lumped in together at once not only changes the balance immensely but also means anything the players learnt previously is just thrown out and its a new ball game.

[AlbertN]

I cannot speak for subs - but they do not seem OP - and can still be nailed by carriers too.

Flaks are not OP. They've 50% chance of hitting. And when they hit, the unit hit defence value can convert that in an Efficiency loss instead of HP loss. HOW that is overpowered? If someone wants to invest in Flaks, by all means - they are roughly at the right spot currently, and I do not think they're OP.
On Flaks, once there are strat bombers with range, Germany has plenty of cities in their range, that have 0 flak too - and in late war the bombers took losses. But think how much it will cost to Germany to carpet their production facilities with flak! (And Italy too!)

[Journier]

one player complaining about subs or AA or airpower or tanks does not make something op.

[Journier]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I mean for example the Sub war. Alvaro argued at length how it was ok and we needed to just learn how to use them better. Then suddenly escorts are less effective, less escorts to start with, subs more effective, subs reduced by almost half to build.

Micheal T you know you are complaining about the beta patch with the subs being reduced in cost right? Its a beta patch to test the effect. If you dont like hard changes, stay away from beta patches maybe. This guy isnt playing beta, and if he is should have made note of that in his post.

[Michael T]

Blind Freddy can see that flak and subs are OP now. Only blatantly pro Axis players would argue otherwise.

Ultimately I believe you will see flak and subs toned down again. It may take a while though.

[Journier]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Blind Freddy can see that flak and subs are OP now. Only blatantly pro Axis players would argue otherwise.

Ultimately I believe you will see flak and subs toned down again. It may take a while though.

as my grandpappy used to say, if the glove dont fit, you must acquit.



23 convoys lost by march 1940 against the AI. by using my carriers to force them to move, and continuously moving my convoy escorts around, to focus on the subs placement on the north or south convoy lanes.

Britain alone starts with 190 convoys. this is with 1.04c patch, with cheap subs, with decreased escorts, decreased escort efficiency, yada yada. Cmon micheal, play the game buddy

If you dont like AA, dont fly your planes into it? IDK all of these things seem reasonable.

[battlevonwar]

Not sure the implications to production if their actually OP in game terms yet. Few ship losses doesn't seem to be game breaking as of yet. Only that Subs are hard to hit back early game . . .

[Michael T]

Looking at that data it proves the point. 2 subs lost for 23 Merchants. So 23x10+(23 production) = 253 points lost by the UK for a damaged Sub (2 factors) = around 34 points.

Every thing about the Sub war and the Strategic bombing is about cost/benefit. So on those figures it's a no brainer to conduct sub warfare.

Look I was one of the first to point out subs were not working and strat bombing was OP in the early versions. They needed attention. But the fix has gone too far IMO. Any fair minded person who analyses the cost/benefit of subs and strategic bombing under 1.04C will soon come to the same conclusion as myself. Both methods have done a complete 180 rather than a 90.

Anyway I have said my piece.

Merry xmas all [:)]

[tyronec]

Up to November '39 in my latest HvH game am getting:
7 merchants & 0 Escorts for 3 subs.
Clearly not a good exchange for Axis.

What difficulty are you playing on ?

[MagicMissile]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Up to November '39 in my latest HvH game am getting:
7 merchants & 0 Escorts for 3 subs.
Clearly not a good exchange for Axis.

What difficulty are you playing on ?

Yes I was just gonna comment. It doesn´t seem too bad. I just sent out my subs in our other game we will see how they fare. Also just one raid maybe I was lucky and it will get a lot worse.

/MM

[jjdenver]

All the back and forth discussion is a little interesting but one thing jumps out to me. People seem to be sending out their CV's to "chase" subs away. How is this done? Like whack-a-mole? You sail a CV TF (and what do you usually send along with CV's? 1 BB group, 1 DD group? Then you see subs on map, sail to it and try to launch air attack on it? This is what you are doing with CV's?

Also on a diff topic, to be clear - is this how a bomber in Malta should be set to interdict the Italian supply route to Africa? Full support on and attack naval units selected? If Axis put a fighter in Italy will it intercept and attrit this bomber substantially? There doesn't seem to be any way to get a Brit fighter into the area to escort the bomber.


Thanks

[tyronec]

I am sending a fleet with carriers adjacent to the subs and attacking, using an action point.
Usually they miss.

[AlvaroSousa]

Eveything depend son how you lay out your escorts and what the German player does and where he hits. As England you SHOULD BE buying escorts on the very 1st turn of the game.

in 1940 the UK more than doubled the # of escorts at sea.
They need to be investing maximum in anti-submarine tech.
They might have to build MMs.
The UK roughly has double what they need.
As the Axis take over neutrals the UK get their MMs.

Also the German subs do have to go back to port to repair and refuel so that gives you breathers and averages the damage out.

I ran quite a few simulations to get a good PP ratio cost estimate.

As the UK you should be absolutely terrified in 1939 and 1940 of German subs. Once you get tech the swing starts going in the other direction. With about 40 escorts you should be doing ok.

In WarPlan you gotta work and plan to protect those convoys. No easy rides soldier!!!!

[Journier]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Up to November '39 in my latest HvH game am getting:
7 merchants & 0 Escorts for 3 subs.
Clearly not a good exchange for Axis.

What difficulty are you playing on ?

i play on elite difficulty vs the ai this game and optimal supply setting for AI.

Historical difficulty, the AI cant break france until mid 41 usually.

[Journier]

ORIGINAL: Michael T
Look I was one of the first to point out subs were not working and strat bombing was OP in the early versions. They needed attention. But the fix has gone too far IMO. Any fair minded person who analyses the cost/benefit of subs and strategic bombing under 1.04C will soon come to the same conclusion as myself. Both methods have done a complete 180 rather than a 90.

Anyway I have said my piece.

yes micheal, but its 1939, against germany its not supposed to be easy before convoy escort tech goes up, then it gets far harder, due to subs more easily being damaged. Trust me I play germany and Allies alot in test AI games.

germany sank 14.5 million tons of cargo in WW2.

[tyronec]

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Up to November '39 in my latest HvH game am getting:
7 merchants & 0 Escorts for 3 subs.
Clearly not a good exchange for Axis.

What difficulty are you playing on ?


i play on elite difficulty vs the ai this game and optimal supply setting for AI.

Historical difficulty, the AI cant break france until mid 41 usually.

That would explain why the subs are doing so well against you.
For HvH games started under 4b it looks like the sub war is well in favor of the Allies.

[Journier]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Up to November '39 in my latest HvH game am getting:
7 merchants & 0 Escorts for 3 subs.
Clearly not a good exchange for Axis.

What difficulty are you playing on ?


i play on elite difficulty vs the ai this game and optimal supply setting for AI.

Historical difficulty, the AI cant break france until mid 41 usually.

That would explain why the subs are doing so well against you.
For HvH games started under 4b it looks like the sub war is well in favor of the Allies.

I have a PBEM game of 1.04b going currently, and i agree its tough, 1.04c made some good changes imo.