Italy Oil

[tigercub]

Italy as no Oil income at the beginning of the 1939 scenario does not make sense!

[Journier]

hmmm never noticed this before in 39 scenario will check

[AlbertN]

Italy relies on traded oil.

I personally feel that they should have an income of 5 from Albania and a 'token' income of 5 in North Italy as form of 'national reserve' to keep a bare minimum of activity in general. (Plus I think Axis needs 10 oil in Hungary too)

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Italy relies on traded oil.

I personally feel that they should have an income of 5 from Albania and a 'token' income of 5 in North Italy as form of 'national reserve' to keep a bare minimum of activity in general. (Plus I think Axis needs 10 oil in Hungary too)

According to the League of Nations statistical digest, Albania produced 208,000 tons of oil in 1939 ... based on Romania's 40 OIL and its 6.239 million tons of oil produced in 1939 this means that 1 OIL is approximately 150,000 tons of production.

To give Albania 5 OIL (the minimum you can ... at present) is to grossly over-egg their actual production ... they would rate 1 OIL at best.

Likewise, Hungary produced around half what Albania did ... so they should get 0.5 OIL, realistically ... at most.

Historically, Poland would get 4 OIL.

What I did with the Historical Map Mod I have been working on is to combine Polish and Hungarian Oil in 5 OIL at 177, 50, which would seem to be the best solution since Poland won't get any benefit anyway.

I cannot see any non-gamey or fantasy reason for giving Albania 5 OIL ... it merely advantages the Axis (and Germany especially) more than it already is.

Of course, if Alvaro could add a 1 OIL and 2 OIL marker to the tiles available you could represent things more accurately and WITHOUT giving the Axis fantasy level assistance.

The problem is, then he'd really be obliged to have 1 STEEL and 2 STEEL markers to more accurately represent steel production distribution, too.

Or, to put your thinking another way ... *I* think that the UK should have 10 OIL as well as CROP marker because she is forced to rely on convoys to bring stuff in, which ISN'T FAIR ... what's sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander, in other words.

See, 'fairness' has nothing whatsoever to do with reality.

Phil McGregor

[gingerbread]

The US sold oil to Italy. How about having the game start with an established trade which is discontinued at war entry.

This provides Italy with some oil and also introduce an opportunity cost of an early DoW. I like opportunity costs.

[battlevonwar]

aspgrz02, shouldn't Italy start with small stockpile?

1940

The Regia Marina, expecting the imminent conflict against Great Britain, had planned in the years preceding the war and had been able to accumulate hefty quantities of oil fuel for her boilers to about 2 million tons. This quantity was thought sufficient for about one and one half years of war without any limitations. The Navy was the only armed force, which was able to accumulate a large quantity of fuel, and in the first week of June the Minister of Corporations withdrew 250,000 tons for the operation of industries and also for the Regia Aeronautica. The Regia Aeronautica had used tanks built of tin, instead of iron, which had caused the gasoline to spoil, so the Navy had to transfer 50,000 tons of gasoline.
~http://www.regiamarina.net/detail_text. ... =125&lid=1

ORIGINAL: aspqrz02

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Italy relies on traded oil.

I personally feel that they should have an income of 5 from Albania and a 'token' income of 5 in North Italy as form of 'national reserve' to keep a bare minimum of activity in general. (Plus I think Axis needs 10 oil in Hungary too)

According to the League of Nations statistical digest, Albania produced 208,000 tons of oil in 1939 ... based on Romania's 40 OIL and its 6.239 million tons of oil produced in 1939 this means that 1 OIL is approximately 150,000 tons of production.

To give Albania 5 OIL (the minimum you can ... at present) is to grossly over-egg their actual production ... they would rate 1 OIL at best.

Likewise, Hungary produced around half what Albania did ... so they should get 0.5 OIL, realistically ... at most.

Historically, Poland would get 4 OIL.

What I did with the Historical Map Mod I have been working on is to combine Polish and Hungarian Oil in 5 OIL at 177, 50, which would seem to be the best solution since Poland won't get any benefit anyway.

I cannot see any non-gamey or fantasy reason for giving Albania 5 OIL ... it merely advantages the Axis (and Germany especially) more than it already is.

Of course, if Alvaro could add a 1 OIL and 2 OIL marker to the tiles available you could represent things more accurately and WITHOUT giving the Axis fantasy level assistance.

The problem is, then he'd really be obliged to have 1 STEEL and 2 STEEL markers to more accurately represent steel production distribution, too.

Or, to put your thinking another way ... *I* think that the UK should have 10 OIL as well as CROP marker because she is forced to rely on convoys to bring stuff in, which ISN'T FAIR ... what's sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander, in other words.

See, 'fairness' has nothing whatsoever to do with reality.

Phil McGregor

[aspqrz02]

Yes, that is a solution that is both historical AND makes sense!

Phil McGregor

[Michael T]

Yes a small stockpile would be a good fix.

[aspqrz02]

Two million tons is about 13 OIL ... bugger all ... so, yes, give Italy 13 OIL stockpile ... but NOT in addition to the 10 OIL she already has, just TO 13 OIL.

Italy's pre-war planning was, to put it kindly, piss poor.

Now, sure, Axis players will say 'but I would have done better' ... thing is, they want benefits of better planning, but ONLY FOR THE AXIS.

If you want more OIL for Italy because YOU are a better planner than Mussolini, then *I* am a better planner than Chamberlain and Churchill ... so *I* want something that represents this!

How about, No Munich ... so Czechoslovakia still exists and is pro-Allied? Or has given up the Sudetenland but the Germans were held back from taking the rest in April 39 by stronger allied support, so it is a smaller country, but allied with the Allies. Or maybe the war is triggered in April 38 when the Germans invade her ... so you have a not fully mobilised Germany facing a Franco-German mobilisation (maybe a Phoney War, but with another 5 months to expand their militaries ...).

On that basis I'd be happy to allow Mussolini to have some extra OIL.

Axis players, however, aren't likely to be so happy ...

Phil McGregor

[aspqrz02]

They already have a stockpile of 10 OIL, so add +3 OIL to make it 13 OIL which is approximately the 2 million tons they actually had.

NOT, as I suspect some Axis players would want, an additional 13 OIL for 23 OIL total.

Phil McGregor

[AlbertN]

13 Fuel points is what is used in -1- turn by 2 medium bombers (well 12).
That is hardly a stockpile.

[Michael T]

Italy just did not have oil. It's a fact. Axis players just have to live with that. It's the main reason their beautiful Italian Navy rarely sailed.

[battlevonwar]

If there was enough oil though in the stockpiles vs what the games consumes to run for a year or more wouldn't it make sense to give it? You cannot historically represent with a Hexagon and an oil marker what history represents. Italy revolted after a few bombings and it's people were nearly in revolt in a couple of years but the game doesn't represent that at all or cannot cause it's not that complex. If you want historical accuracy on the level you speak of you need to create a game that would be so vast and so time consuming it would take millions of dollars to to make and likely 10 years? Depending on the size of the Dev team? Even then you would be far off history.

You really cannot make a playable and entertaining and 100% factual war game with the technology present today. Also you cannot make it entertaining. Why play the game if your philosophy is bleak for one side? If you want to do it your way why not do this?

The Axis will lose not matter what? Stack the odds so heavily against them all they can do is precisely what they did historically then put a rating on how well the player did vs Historically on whether there is a Victor or Loser? They might take Stalingrad for a month then lose it +1 VP. They might mop up Dunkirk +1 VP. They may lose Libya in 1940 -1 VP. Etc... Practical

Vis Versa for the Allies put a Rating on their performance. If they do a poorer job than history than they lose the game. Though not the war?

Makes sense... There are a ton of resources, factories, logistics, etc.. that are not included in the game. There is a ton of history not included in the game. It's like World of Warships, the models of ships are highly accurate but the actual game play if it took hours to start the game engine would put a player to sleep to actually play it.

ORIGINAL: aspqrz02

They already have a stockpile of 10 OIL, so add +3 OIL to make it 13 OIL which is approximately the 2 million tons they actually had.

NOT, as I suspect some Axis players would want, an additional 13 OIL for 23 OIL total.

Phil McGregor

[Journier]

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

13 Fuel points is what is used in -1- turn by 2 medium bombers (well 12).
That is hardly a stockpile.

13 fuel points is enough for... 1 sortie by the regia marina? maybe? it sure doesnt sound like much in comparison to 2 million tons stockpiled in real life that I thought lasted till almost 41.

[battlevonwar]

Italy had far worse issues though than some oil. They had biplanes and a lack of rations, equipment shortages, brash leadership. You really have to make her gimped. The game does go about that 'some'... she doesn't build large infantry divisions. She hasn't the oil to run her fancy air force or navy so it's more of a pretty picture frame without the picture. If Germany is on the warpath she won't get that oil either in lend lease.

If the UK or US dropped a decent invasion force with her morale/forces she would surrender pretty quickly. Which turns out is probably a pretty historical representation for the game.

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

13 Fuel points is what is used in -1- turn by 2 medium bombers (well 12).
That is hardly a stockpile.

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith
13 Fuel points is what is used in -1- turn by 2 medium bombers (well 12).
That is hardly a stockpile.

No, but is reality.

Reality sucks.

Phil McGregor

[aspqrz02]

Actually, reality is moderately closely represented ... well, representable ... with WarPlan.

What you're REALLY complaining about is that you cannot have an Axis fantasy scenario where they can, and do, conquer the entire map.

You REALLY want to have unrealistic benefits ONLY for the Axis player and force the Allied player to have, not just NO benefits, but actually hobble them with unrealistic penalties.

So, you want the Axis to be given, free and clear, stockpiles that will enable them to run rampant across the map for an entire year with no recourse to actual real world constraints?

Fine.

As long as the ALLIES get the same deal. Just 'give' the UK enough stockpiles to last a year with no need for those pesky convoys.

We both know that this is NOT what is really wanted.

Phil McGregor

[aspqrz02]

ORIGINAL: Journier
13 fuel points is enough for... 1 sortie by the regia marina? maybe? it sure doesnt sound like much in comparison to 2 million tons stockpiled in real life that I thought lasted till almost 41.

Well, you know how the Italians managed to make do?

1) They kept the Regia Marina, especially the major combatants (fuel hogs), in port for most of the time, with just enough fuel for their boilers to be kept on standby.

2) They relied almost entirely, pretty much from the get go, on shipments of oil from GERMAN stockpiles to do even (1).

3) Any serious operations they did (Navy, Air Force, Army) that required oil they relied on the Germans underwriting it with OIL from German stockpiles.

That is reality.

(There may be a case for giving Germany slightly larger At Start stockpiles, but certainly not enough to run rampant for a year without anything else needed. Or there may be a case for having Air Forces use less OIL ... which will advantage the Allies at least as much as the Axis, so be warned.)

Also, remember that that is the Italian OIL stockpile IN SEPTEMBER 1939. As Italy -

1) Don't do any moves requiring OIL

2) Allow (as suggested) an OIL trade with the US or South/Central America using their Merchantmen

and build up your stockpile for a historical mid-late 1940 DoW.

I dunno how much OIL Italy imported before the war, so that would require some research ... but, remember, Italy wasn't a rich country, OIL imports would be limited by available $$$ to much less than Axis players will probably like!

Phil McGregor

[Journier]

ORIGINAL: aspqrz02

ORIGINAL: Journier
13 fuel points is enough for... 1 sortie by the regia marina? maybe? it sure doesnt sound like much in comparison to 2 million tons stockpiled in real life that I thought lasted till almost 41.

Well, you know how the Italians managed to make do?

1) They kept the Regia Marina, especially the major combatants (fuel hogs), in port for most of the time, with just enough fuel for their boilers to be kept on standby.

2) They relied almost entirely, pretty much from the get go, on shipments of oil from GERMAN stockpiles to do even (1).

3) Any serious operations they did (Navy, Air Force, Army) that required oil they relied on the Germans underwriting it with OIL from German stockpiles.

That is reality.

(There may be a case for giving Germany slightly larger At Start stockpiles, but certainly not enough to run rampant for a year without anything else needed. Or there may be a case for having Air Forces use less OIL ... which will advantage the Allies at least as much as the Axis, so be warned.)

Also, remember that that is the Italian OIL stockpile IN SEPTEMBER 1939. As Italy -

1) Don't do any moves requiring OIL

2) Allow (as suggested) an OIL trade with the US or South/Central America using their Merchantmen

and build up your stockpile for a historical mid-late 1940 DoW.

I dunno how much OIL Italy imported before the war, so that would require some research ... but, remember, Italy wasn't a rich country, OIL imports would be limited by available $$$ to much less than Axis players will probably like!

Phil McGregor

The axis as a whole have plenty of oil for 12 -14 tank corps at barbarossa start and can then drag out the war quite well into 43 without oil issue in my opinion, i have posted about this previously and everyone screamed it cant be done but it can easily repeatedly. They can do this while fulfilling Italy's needs of 20-25 oil every turn light combat operations, and every few weeks a fleet sailing.

All i am saying is sailing the regia marina around the mediteranean would not burn their entire fuel reserve in one trip. one time wouldnt burn all fuel stockpiles for italy before 1940, thats all I am saying. Im not asking for more fuel production, im just saying matching the fuel stores at game start with the amount used by units is difficult :/

[aspqrz02]

A quick search indicates that Italy *probably* imported 600,000 tons of Oil a year pre-war. That's OIL 4 a month in WarPlan terms. Which makes a stockpile of OIL 13 look OK... 3 months needs!

It MAY have been as high as OIL 10 a month ...

The Import figures I have been able to dig up include 1-2 OIL a month from Albania.

Anyone got better figures?

Phil McGregor