No Barbarossa = No Minors

[Michael T]

@Alvaro

Why do the Germans get to keep Finland, Rumania and Hungary as minor allies if the Germans do not launch Barbarossa in 1941?

From my reading the only reason these minors joined Germany was for the war against Russia.

I would strongly advocate that if Germany does not DOW on Russia by June 1941 then these minors return to neutral status. And will only reactivate upon a German DOW on Russia prior to US entry in the war.

[Flaviusx]

Finland yes, I disagree about the other two, they were pretty solidly in the Axis orbit by the end of 1940. The Germans were even putting troops into Romania by the end of the year. Whether or not Barbarossa happened, they would be Axis minors imo. Finland is better case for leaving neutral absent Barbarossa.

The real problem is people sending their forces to fight in NA, which is ridiculous. The Hungarians and Romanians would rather fight each other than the British.

[Michael T]

As I posted in the other thread. There is a big difference to being in the German orbit and supplying war material than to being active participants.

These minors only became belligerents against the Russian's. And that should be reflected in the game. The units of Rumania/Hungary were only ever used in Russia and the Balkans.

[Michael T]

A3R/AWAW deals with the minors nicely. I keep coming back to this game. But it's a very good benchmark.

It has several different levels of co operation with Germany for the minors. Including Spain and Turkey. Alvaro would do well to take a leaf from AWAW in these matters.

It includes levels from lose association to full on active participation. The in between status's include access and occupation by limited German troops.

But even with full activation there are geographical restrictions on unit deployments. And IIRC full activation is not likely until Barbarossa is launched.

[Michael T]

85.46 GEOGRAPHICAL RESTRICTIONS:Minor ally units may enter anyhexes in their home country, as well as the following areas:A. BALKAN MINOR ALLIES:

•BULGARIA:Albania, Greece and European Turkey, as well as the territory of any conquered or enemy Balkan minor country. Bulgarian units may not enter the territory of a Balkan minor country which is part of the same alliance.

•HUNGARY:The Baltic States, Poland, including eastern Poland, Russia, Albania, Greeceand European Turkey, as well as the territory of any conquered or enemy Balkan minor country. Hungarian units may not enter the territory of a Balkan minor country which is part of the same alliance and may not enter Bessarabia unless Rumania has been conquered or attacked by the major power alliance to which Hungary is allied.

•RUMANIA:The Baltic States, Poland, including eastern Poland, Russia, Albania, Greece and European Turkey, as well as the territory of any conquered or enemy Balkan minor country. Rumanian units may not enter the territory of a Balkan minor country which is part of the same alliance. Rumanian naval units are limited to the Black Sea and its ports.

•YUGOSLAVIA:Albania, Greece and European Turkey, as well as the territory of any conquered or enemy Balkan minor country. Yugoslav units may not enter the territory of a Balkan minor country which is part of the same alliance.

Here are the AWAW rules for the deployment of German minors.

[AlvaroSousa]

Finland I can do the others I can't. While the above is really good it is a lot of work to incorporate and cause problems while coding. But I do have these rules.

[AlbertN]

Alvaro please don't.

Finland has no shipping so cannot leave Finland - unless it's built, and if Axis wants to build that sure, they toss cash away probably.
Their air unit could go elsewhere but it's -1- unit!

By having Finland joining the Axis before a Barbarossa, it allows to:
A) lending them resources
B) deploying German troops there if needed and redeploying the finns as required.

World in Flames has 'When Germany declares war to Russia, Finland can join the Axis'. But World in Flames has free deployment on country activation (So actually the Finns magically appear on the map as the Axis desires. They're not pre-deployed); and their units are by year (So if they are activated in '41, they get also extra units that they do not have for the Winter War in '39 if Soviets ever do that).

Each game has its own tune and music. By how Warplan is - how Finland work is fine. And considering they're winterized - whilst I understand that if Leningrad is taken they could be sent to France, oh hey, even Lybia - that would be using them in sub optimal ways considering the longest snowy turns are in Russia...

[Michael T]

You want WarPlan to be a free for all, unless its the Allies.

I would rather it be based on the reality of WWII with realistic deviations/choices equally considered for both sides.

[Almeron]

I believe the axis minors (except Finland), should be in stage like Italy. 20 strength infantry units, rather than to compete with the best german/usa units.
That could solve a lot of issues. For example will be useless to transport them to Africa, or if it's happen, they will be as useful, as italian units.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: Michael T
I would rather it be based on the reality of WWII with realistic deviations/choices equally considered for both sides.

The reality was the Tripartite Pact that brought in the Axis minors (except Finland) and almost Yugoslavia, all prior to Barbarossa. So historical dates for entry are fine.

I would agree to the territorial deployment restrictions as in 3R/A3R, but if too difficult to code then these can easily be played via House Rule between players.

[AlvaroSousa]

Cohen brings up a good point. Axis units were in Finland before the war.

[Michael T]

Cohen brings up a good point. Axis units were in Finland before the war.

I have no issue with that. It's the minors scurrying all over Europe that irks me. When the only motivation they had for war was with Russia, or each other.

I guess thats going to be my personal HR from now on.