Invasions too easy ?

[tyronec]

Where have I seen that title before [:)][:)][:)]

This is from my game with MM.
From this position Axis were able to sail a replacement Corps into Copenhagen. There were no intercepts from any of the 6 fleets or 4 bombers.
There were more invasions around the same time to a couple of other different locations in Denmark, less Allied units on interception but again no combats.

[PanzerMike]

Seen this?
fb.asp?m=4757503

Invasions are still somewhat of an enigma to me.

[PanzerMike]

No interception you say. I keep seeing these red arrows pointing from an enemy air unit to my invasion hex when I land, but it doesn't seem to do anything.

[tyronec]

Seen this?
fb.asp?m=4757503

Invasions are still somewhat of an enigma to me.

Looks like you have unloaded onto a defending unit, so what happened looks like a bug to me. If I understand the rules correctly you can only invade onto empty hexes.

The question about the invasions around Denmark is more of a game balance issue.

[PanzerMike]

You may be right, I wasn't supposed to be able to land on that hex. I think Alvaro said that would change in Warplan 2.

That being said, have you ever seen real interception of an invading unit, resulting in serious casualties on a beach (where they are three times more vulnerable to damage by air attacks IIRC).

[AlvaroSousa]

Which hex is this? And which unit missed interception and was shipped into where?

[tyronec]

The next move MM shipped out the 1-5 unit in Copenhagen and shipped in a fresh Corps.
You can see the bombers and naval units in the pic.

On my current move think I actually get a naval interception of a land unit and think it was sunk, so am guessing the chance of interdicting land units moving at sea is something like 1 in 10 or a bit worse.
Perhaps MM can confirm.

[MagicMissile]

Yes I saw some red arrows so intercepts were attempted but failed. But one intercept was successful and sank two divisions by mistake I sent both together.

Another question is when a transport is intercepted I have never seen partial damage it is either hit or miss, sink or no effect. Wouldn´t it be better if the chance to intercept went up and there could be partial damage? No intercept might be bad but so is 100% casualties it doesn´t happen that often I´d say.

/MM

[AlvaroSousa]

Well if he did a night mission there is less of a chance and no air chance.

[tyronec]

Well if he did a night mission there is less of a chance and no air chance.

I thought you took that out for land units.

[AlvaroSousa]

I did in the latest beta version.

[AlvaroSousa]

It's just quite possible you missed interception that's all.

[tyronec]

Are you not persuaded that the game balance is off here ?
If this is really how it works then Sealion is still odds on despite the recent patch and that doesn't work for a good game.

Axis have sailed a transport convoy through the middle of the Allied fleets, supported by a stack of Allied bombers, and taken 0 losses. Axis have no Naval support as escorts on their own side.

There is no example of a significant Naval movement in the whole of the 20th C to my knowledge where one side transported 50k odd men and equipment by sea on transports through a war zone that was patrolled by enemy naval forces without any escorts of their own. In this case it was a replacement of the Copenhagen garrison but it would have worked the same for an invasion.

Am wondering if the odds of an intercept are the same regardless of how many units the defender has. So if you have one fleet there is one chance of an intercept, but if you have 10 fleets maybe you still only have one chance of an intercept ?

[MorningDew]

The reason I posted the question in the War Room on naval/air strategy is that I haven't found a way to really impact invasions or, as you point out, troop transport, using naval or air. I am still very open to the possibility that there might be a method that I do not yet understand in the current system, but I haven't it yet.

[battlevonwar]

(I looked over your map, it is amazing to have so many naval units and Air units, I wonder how many operational points the air had and their strength/effectiveness. I have found Naval Units to have a more more difficult time with interceptions of pure transports... I do not rely on air or a navy though for interception. I would spend that cash on Garrison Units, Divs/Small Corps/Big Corps as far as I see as the best tactic to stop an Amphibious move)

I have had air interceptions without fail on Troop Transports without an Escort. With an escort I've endured far less. I would say in about 10 tests, with a CV on the receiving end it was nearly every time without the night movement feature. I would say that it's probable that with CVs/Various Bombers that any movement will be attacked but the issue here is with say Sea Lion is the Axis will just grind the UK Air Force and the UK Navy will not Kamikaze itself against the Luftwaffe in intercept or a blockade of the Channel.

The UK can be defended however, the failure is in the player. I played Almeron and he held off the Axis till 1941 for a possible Sea Lion so the player is likely not very great at The Battle of France. It was August before France was taken and my Air was battered as well as my land forces. I could take England in 1941 though... Though by then he could also have increased the size of his Army and had likely 2 Armor and how many Corp Air available for use? I would also risk that by the time I was done I would have to deal with the USA ... within several months and then the USSR the following Spring in '42.

Which isn't actually a more winning strategy unless it can be done cheaply. I will admit his English Isles were scantly covered but doing it was not the intuitive move for me instead I went for Norway/Greece and the Soviets. It paid more cash for less expenditure and the USA is not involved and the Soviets are still weak.

If I had gone all in on the British in September of '40 and the weather turned, what would of happened? Hmmm Big Risk if you get those rainy turns...

Not sure how strong amphibious actions are in a game of this "scale"... I will say that without it, the best Allied Player I've faced would of lost the Soviet Union with no recourse in both our games. SO, it's hard to judge!

P.S. Sea Lion isn't that grand, vs a Soviet Super Army/Airforce is it?

[Michael T]

It should be virtually an automatic intercept success for enemy invasions on friendly coasts.

As the invasion takes place over several days most likely (unless a commando raid) and even unloading in a port took days.

This is why seaborne invasions were not even attempted unless the the invader could guarantee localized supremacy in the air and/or sea.

Also it's seems to be common practice in this game to send off ground units to invade enemy shores without any naval escort at all. And they make it through. It's just ludicrous. And to be honest anyone with even one ounce of historical knowledge about seaborne invasions in the WWII era would know that anyone who suggested sending troops across the seas in to enemy controlled waters without escort, or air cover would have been thrown in to the nearest mental institute.

[AlvaroSousa]

I'll double check interception settings.

[battlevonwar]

Michael T,

in history... Say your opponent then turns around and sees you have 1 submarine/2 Bombers located say in Brest for interception purposes?

All games can be made gamey so what will he do if he has 10 Korp and 10 Armor ready to land and Moscow/Stalingrad has fallen. Use 6 Destroyer Groups to sail past your Brest Defense. This will auto-activate your airpower and submarine as an interceptor. He then will land his Corps. You will be out of action points. He will have baited your Air/Naval Power into a Ruse(which is historical and did happen Calais/Normandy) of course you cannot draw such a drastic parallel but it will be done.

Clamor for Alterations to fix and miss the point. Make a Random chance that a Bomber or Submarine will snipe out a Large Corp within a Fleet or performing a Naval maneuver near it regardless of the composition and movements or actions. For Smart Pilots are told and do know to target what is valuable. Carriers/Troop Transports or whatever is vital to the mission? I think my solution a bit more frightening when you're transporting your Tank Corp and suddenly it's the only ship hit and you're like What the HEY? Well, no air supremacy or Naval supremacy buddy right?

Think not just history but 'in game tactics'!

ORIGINAL: Michael T

It should be virtually an automatic intercept success for enemy invasions on friendly coasts.

As the invasion takes place over several days most likely (unless a commando raid) and even unloading in a port took days.

This is why seaborne invasions were not even attempted unless the the invader could guarantee localized supremacy in the air and/or sea.

Also it's seems to be common practice in this game to send off ground units to invade enemy shores without any naval escort at all. And they make it through. It's just ludicrous. And to be honest anyone with even one ounce of historical knowledge about seaborne invasions in the WWII era would know that anyone who suggested sending troops across the seas in to enemy controlled waters without escort, or air cover would have been thrown in to the nearest mental institute.

[Michael T]

I don't know what history books on the war you have read. Or even what authentic war games you have played. But you obviously are interested in a different type of WWII game to me. Which is ok. But don't try to push your ideals on to me or try to dissuade me from arguing for what I find a more palatable gaming experience.

There is plenty of room for realistic tactics and strategies in a realistic game. Abstraction is acceptable to a degree, as it is a game after all.

If you have ever played a board game on a similar subject you will find that the Invasion Rules are probably the most complex and sophisticated of the entire game. I think WarPlan is lacking in this area. Probably because it is difficult for one man to code. But I could suggest a myriad of rules that would be simple that would make the game much more in line with historical capabilities. And still allow for a raft of tactics and strategies.

[tyronec]

(I looked over your map, it is amazing to have so many naval units and Air units, I wonder how many operational points the air had and their strength/effectiveness. I have found Naval Units to have a more more difficult time with interceptions of pure transports... I do not rely on air or a navy though for interception. I would spend that cash on Garrison Units, Divs/Small Corps/Big Corps as far as I see as the best tactic to stop an Amphibious move)

I have had air interceptions without fail on Troop Transports without an Escort. With an escort I've endured far less. I would say in about 10 tests, with a CV on the receiving end it was nearly every time without the night movement feature. I would say that it's probable that with CVs/Various Bombers that any movement will be attacked but the issue here is with say Sea Lion is the Axis will just grind the UK Air Force and the UK Navy will not Kamikaze itself against the Luftwaffe in intercept or a blockade of the Channel.

The UK can be defended however, the failure is in the player. I played Almeron and he held off the Axis till 1941 for a possible Sea Lion so the player is likely not very great at The Battle of France. It was August before France was taken and my Air was battered as well as my land forces. I could take England in 1941 though... Though by then he could also have increased the size of his Army and had likely 2 Armor and how many Corp Air available for use? I would also risk that by the time I was done I would have to deal with the USA ... within several months and then the USSR the following Spring in '42.

Which isn't actually a more winning strategy unless it can be done cheaply. I will admit his English Isles were scantly covered but doing it was not the intuitive move for me instead I went for Norway/Greece and the Soviets. It paid more cash for less expenditure and the USA is not involved and the Soviets are still weak.

If I had gone all in on the British in September of '40 and the weather turned, what would of happened? Hmmm Big Risk if you get those rainy turns...

Not sure how strong amphibious actions are in a game of this "scale"... I will say that without it, the best Allied Player I've faced would of lost the Soviet Union with no recourse in both our games. SO, it's hard to judge!

P.S. Sea Lion isn't that grand, vs a Soviet Super Army/Airforce is it?

What you write is a direct contradiction of my experience of the game.

You have the example above where an infantry corps sailed past 6 fleets and 4 bombers without being interdicted.

Could be that fleets with CVs interdict more often, am not sure.

From what MM wrote on the AAR about the same game he estimates 30% chance of an intercept for each naval movement. So given there are 10 possible interceptors here that is around maybe 3-5% chance per stack intercepting.

I have played one game where I started with a '40 Sealion strategy from T1 (the AAR is there to look at). It came about after some discussion on the Forum that the Allies could stop Sealion easily enough. It was an easy win, Allies had NO chance of stopping it. Frankly I feel embarrassed to have played that way against an opponent who expected a full length and fair game and aside from the strole into the UK we were well matched. The rules have since been changed to make invasions more difficult but IMO a well planned Sealion is still going to work. Have just started another game as Axis and will not be trying that strategy, so in a sense that game is also compromised to some extent because my opponent now knows what I will not be doing.