does AA fire on land combat defense?

[Jorge_Stanbury]

does an AA gun device has any defense impact on land combat?

they won't "shoot" on offensive because they lack AV value;

but how would they defend? I mean, would a .50 cal or 13mm work like a standard machine gun? or would a 90mm M1A1 gun shoot down tanks?

thanks

[PaxMondo]

I don't know. Could they, did they. IRL the answer is yes. In the game? Not sure, but the AE team was pretty hardcore and wanted things to work. They've got the AT algorithm in place (defensive fire only), so it wouldn't have been too hard to expand that to include other guns. And support troops also pitch in on defense only. My gut tells me yes, but I have no hard evidence to support it. Sandboxing it wouldn't be too hard … just look for supply usage in defense.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I don't know. Could they, did they. IRL the answer is yes. In the game? Not sure, but the AE team was pretty hardcore and wanted things to work. They've got the AT algorithm in place (defensive fire only), so it wouldn't have been too hard to expand that to include other guns. And support troops also pitch in on defense only. My gut tells me yes, but I have no hard evidence to support it. Sandboxing it wouldn't be too hard … just look for supply usage in defense.

I think I saw a comment by Alfred or one of the devs that they would defend themselves if they were about to get overrun. I did once trap an AA unit and shock attacked with tanks - lost a couple of tanks destroyed and about three times that number disabled but the AA unit was destroyed.

[Alfred]

1.  Don't confuse a type AAA device with a type DP device.
 
2.  The supply metric would be of limited value.
 
Alfred

[Ian R]

I included the M16 quad 50 halftrack mounted MGMC in my mod. It arrives in dedicated auto-weapons battalions per the historical schedule. These were certainly available during the Luzon and Okinawa campaigns. I set it up as an AFV.

The troops referred to them as "meat choppers". In the European theatre, it is alleged German infantry would surrender when one was operating nearby.

I have no firm view on whether the ceiling setting means it actually shoots at aircraft.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I think I saw a comment by Alfred or one of the devs that they would defend themselves if they were about to get overrun. I did once trap an AA unit and shock attacked with tanks - lost a couple of tanks destroyed and about three times that number disabled but the AA unit was destroyed.

I have same experience with isolated AA against tanks. Presumably the guns indeed manage to get some shots

[RangerJoe]

The M16 as well as the M15 were both mobile AA platforms. Later on in the war, they were usually not needed as such so they were used in the ground support role. The .50 bullet would go through brick walls.

[rustysi]

I have seen some AAA batteries fire in an anti-invasion roll. Don't recall what caliber they were, its been a while. Please don't confuse this with a CD type attack, troops were landing in the hex.

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

I have seen some AAA batteries fire in an anti-invasion roll. Don't recall what caliber they were, its been a while. Please don't confuse this with a CD type attack, troops were landing in the hex.

I have had AAA and dp fire at invaders and bombarding ships....GP

[RangerJoe]

I saw a Japanese ship sunk by a 40mm.

They probably fire defensively like anti-tank guns but not offensively.

[rustysi]

They probably fire defensively like anti-tank guns but not offensively.

My guess as well.

[inqistor]

My guess is, that every Device with anti-soft/armor can fire during combat. I haven't seen isolated AA units damage anything, but they were mostly fragments, and already defeated once already.

But considering how defensive invasion/bombardment fire works - only CD guns seems to have any chance to hit anything, they have better accuracy, than normal guns, but numbers alone are much higher that all guns combined in hex. I just made invasion against Palmyra. During night bombardment there was only 6 guns firing, but when my troops began unloading, there are suddenly 76 reported firing. And during ground assault only 53 guns are listed.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: inqistor

My guess is, that every Device with anti-soft/armor can fire during combat. I haven't seen isolated AA units damage anything, but they were mostly fragments, and already defeated once already.

But considering how defensive invasion/bombardment fire works - only CD guns seems to have any chance to hit anything, they have better accuracy, than normal guns, but numbers alone are much higher that all guns combined in hex. I just made invasion against Palmyra. During night bombardment there was only 6 guns firing, but when my troops began unloading, there are suddenly 76 reported firing. And during ground assault only 53 guns are listed.

The CD unit or Naval Fortress has the rangefinders and computers for targeting ships pre-landing, as the troops are getting into their landing craft.
The following phase where it says troops are lost going over the beach is all the other defensive fire from the enemy - including MGs, rifles, mortars, field arty, etc. I am not sure if the Naval Fortress can contribute to gunfire on the beach.

[Alfred]

The entire discussion in this thread is moot, very moot.  So moot it verges on being silly.
 
There is a significant difference between any AAA device and any DP device.  This difference is easily noticed when their firepower stats are looked at.  In general terms DP devices will have a meaningful anti-armour/anti-soft rating.  This means their participation in combat allows for meaningful damage to be inflicted on enemy devices. 
 
The comparable firepower ratings for a land AAA device is usually only around 1.  To put that into context, Support devices are around 5 times more powerful.  Every experienced AE player knows Support devices provide very limited firepower to combat, so how much does one think the 20% of very limited actually contributes.
 
Alfred

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The entire discussion in this thread is moot, very moot.  So moot it verges on being silly.
So? Your point is?

There is a significant difference between any AAA device and any DP device.  This difference is easily noticed when their firepower stats are looked at.  Where are the stats located in the game? In general terms DP devices will have a meaningful anti-armour/anti-soft rating.  This means their participation in combat allows for meaningful damage to be inflicted on enemy devices.  You mean that if a pixelated person was hit by a AAA device that there would be no damage?

The comparable firepower ratings for a land AAA device is usually only around 1.  Where is this information located?To put that into context, Support devices are around 5 times more powerful.  Every experienced AE player knows Support devices provide very limited firepower to combat, so how much does one think the 20% of very limited actually contributes. Every little bit helps!

Alfred

The straw that broke the camels back is not the last one, it is the sum of the total.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So? Your point is?


A great deal of naval gazing about what goes on under the hood which is irrelevant to how the game plays out.


Where are the stats located in the game?


In the ingame database and the editor. Basic game information sources which would not be overlooked by anyone wishing to make informed comments.


You mean that if a pixelated person was hit by a AAA device that there would be no damage?


Correct. Conforms to basic game combat algorithms where a hit does not guarantee any damage results. Well known state of affairs by well informed game commentators.


Where is this information located?


Again found in the ingame database (land firepower data excluded for AA devices) and editor. That AAA device land firepower is not listed in the ingame database speaks eloquently of the importance attached to the issue by the devs.


Every little bit helps!


No it doesn't really help. Stick to buying a lottery ticket, the odds are probably better there of getting some ROI. Almost everyone gets a negative return on their lottery investment.

Alfred

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So? Your point is?


A great deal of naval gazing about what goes on under the hood which is irrelevant to how the game plays out.


Where are the stats located in the game?


In the ingame database and the editor. Basic game information sources which would not be overlooked by anyone wishing to make informed comments.


You mean that if a pixelated person was hit by a AAA device that there would be no damage?


Correct. Conforms to basic game combat algorithms where a hit does not guarantee any damage results. Well known state of affairs by well informed game commentators.


Where is this information located?


Again found in the ingame database (land firepower data excluded for AA devices) and editor. That AAA device land firepower is not listed in the ingame database speaks eloquently of the importance attached to the issue by the devs.


Every little bit helps!


No it doesn't really help. Stick to buying a lottery ticket, the odds are probably better there of getting some ROI. Almost everyone gets a negative return on their lottery investment.

Alfred

The game plays out by what goes under the hood so trying to figure that out helps.

I don't look in the editor for information when playing the game. Just because the land firepower numbers are not listed in the game does not mean that they are not used. Are you stating that I am not making informed comments? Please state who the informed commentators are and thus anyone not listed is uninformed. Also, are you always this insulting or just an A$$?

I don't play the lottery. When you use an acronym, please state what you mean then put the acronym in parenthesis. Otherwise the wrong meaning might be conveyed.

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: inqistor

My guess is, that every Device with anti-soft/armor can fire during combat. I haven't seen isolated AA units damage anything, but they were mostly fragments, and already defeated once already.

But considering how defensive invasion/bombardment fire works - only CD guns seems to have any chance to hit anything, they have better accuracy, than normal guns, but numbers alone are much higher that all guns combined in hex. I just made invasion against Palmyra. During night bombardment there was only 6 guns firing, but when my troops began unloading, there are suddenly 76 reported firing. And during ground assault only 53 guns are listed.

The CD unit or Naval Fortress has the rangefinders and computers for targeting ships pre-landing, as the troops are getting into their landing craft.
The following phase where it says troops are lost going over the beach is all the other defensive fire from the enemy - including MGs, rifles, mortars, field arty, etc. I am not sure if the Naval Fortress can contribute to gunfire on the beach.

I hardly care if I lost 10 more squads during unloading, but I'm pretty sure I have lost Transport Ships only when CD guns were present at landing hex. And they shoot every time you unload something, even only supply. I had like 15 damaged ships disbanded at nearby island, when I invaded Palembang. It was 3 days invasion, and I had rotating CAs in unloading TF all the time, haven't helped in suppressing CD fire.
If your transport is hit, you lose part of everything onboard. It is even worse if it is set on fire.

[Kursk1943]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

does an AA gun device has any defense impact on land combat?

they won't "shoot" on offensive because they lack AV value;

but how would they defend? I mean, would a .50 cal or 13mm work like a standard machine gun? or would a 90mm M1A1 gun shoot down tanks?

thanks

Only if they are flying low enough...[;)]

[modrow]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

There is a significant difference between any AAA device and any DP device.  This difference is easily noticed when their firepower stats are looked at.  In general terms DP devices will have a meaningful anti-armour/anti-soft rating.  This means their participation in combat allows for meaningful damage to be inflicted on enemy devices. 

The comparable firepower ratings for a land AAA device is usually only around 1.  To put that into context, Support devices are around 5 times more powerful.  Every experienced AE player knows Support devices provide very limited firepower to combat, so how much does one think the 20% of very limited actually contributes.

Alfred

Alfred,

now you got me confused. Tracker (which differentiates between Flak and DP guns) seems to attribute quite meaningful anti soft/anti hard values to Flak. See here from a vanilla scen 2 game.

Hartwig