Video on Operation Bagration for those interested

[M60A3TTS]

https://www.c-span.org/video/?466482-3/ ... -offensive

Found this on line from November of last year. Includes David Stahel who had made a couple good videos 5-6 years ago and are posted on y/t.

[joelmar]

excellent, thank you

[M60A3TTS]

For those people that think they know this war, a question.

Prior to Bagration, the Red Army did something from an organizational standpoint that they had not done in nearly two years, nor would they do it again after. It is not mentioned in the presentation and actually was significant in its own right. What was it?

[Gandalf]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

For those people that think they know this war, a question.

Prior to Bagration, the Red Army did something from an organizational standpoint that they had not done in nearly two years, nor would they do it again after. It is not mentioned in the presentation and actually was significant in its own right. What was it?

reforming Corps?

[M60A3TTS]

No, the Red Army had been forming rifle corps continuously since the end of 1941 I believe, although at the outset in very small numbers. They were raising tank corps by the Spring of 1942.

[iwolfhound]

I think it was something to do with partisans.

The guy mentions that the Germans were short of Tanks along the front. He is not clear on why. Each panzer divison had to give up a brigade to refit with the panthers. They were not done at the time of the attack, bad timing for Germans.

[M60A3TTS]

No, it wasn't partisans and any German reorganization in relation to tanks didn't have an impact on Red Army organization.

In the first case, we have to go back to 6 July 1942. 24th Panzer Division was entering the city of Voronezh. As the battle for the city started, it had already been realized by the leadership in Moscow that the Bryansk Front which had responsibility for the city was too much for one individual to manage. A day later, the Bryansk Front was broken in two and the Voronezh Front created. The commander of the Bryansk Front, Filipp Golikov would take the latter and Nikandr Chibisov took Golikov's old command. Neither would remain in their jobs long, as Generals Rokossovsky and Vatutin would replace them albeit for a limited time until the main action swung to the south.

Advancing to Spring, 1944, a commission had been sent from Moscow to determine why Western Front had performed so poorly to date in their offensives against AGC. As was mentioned in the video, the Red Army was struggling to achieve much with superiority in men and supplies. Similar to the first case, it was determined that the Western Front was too large, so it was split up into 2nd and 3rd Belorussian Fronts. General Sokolovsky was relieved for cause and in his place Generals Petrov, later Zakharov of 2nd Belorussian and General Cherniakhovsky of 3rd Belorussian took command. For their part, there is no evidence to suggest the Germans were aware of this. So they were expecting to face off against the same old foe, and what they ended up getting in June was quite different.

[eskuche]

Worst of all this cost SHC 125 admin points each time!!

[M60A3TTS]

Well in July of 1942, the admin bill would be higher still.

Stalin had ordered the recently mobilized 6th Reserve Army to Voronezh. That formation would be re-designated 60th Army.

Now consider, Marshal Timoshenko has met with disaster at Kharkov that only ended about five weeks prior. Elements of German Army Group Center are fighting in Voronezh amidst this front reorganization. The new commander of the Voronezh Front, Vatutin, has been in his new job for a week. He will be given orders from the Stavka to attack with 60th Army in conjunction with attacks of Bryansk Front from north to south to attempt to drive the Germans out of Voronezh.

But Vatutin isn't happy with the commander of 60th Army, General Maxim Antonyuk, and wants to replace him. In his place, Vatutin wants to replace him with someone...

a. who has been a general officer for two months
b. who has been in command of his unit for one month
c. who just lost at least 2/3 of this unit in Voronezh
d. who happens to have just turned 35 years old last month

If you thought you knew Stalin at that time, you would have to have thought, not a chance in the world. He hasn't been listening to his generals up to now, why should he start, especially with the facts above?

Well this time, he did. And that is how the future commander of 3rd Belorussian Front, Ivan Cherniakhovsky, would get his one and only army command.