Is Anti-Tank infantry useless?

[ncc1701e]

I am perhaps wrong but I am under impression that an Assault infantry will defend better than an Anti-Tank infantry.

Anyone has a good feedback on Anti-Tank infantry?

Thanks

[Flaviusx]

The two tech are basically not even distinguishable until at least 41 or even 42.

That said, I build AT for the Soviets exclusively. ALL new construction infantry. I don't build any assault infantry at all for them.

So the tech matters for them a lot. I think it's a pass for anybody else, though, unless you want beefy HQs. (If you are finding your HQs having to fight, you are probably doing it wrong, lol.)

The Soviets are forced to research both assault and AT and everybody else can just give AT a pass. Indeed, I wish the Soviet reserves came in as AT rather than assault. (And some of these end up having to be disbanded and fed immediately into the mobilization machine. The last half dozen or so reserve armies are worthless. 39 assault tech and 30% experience at a time when the Sovs are pushing 50% experience and 42 tech. Not worth the bother of upgrading and bloodying in battle.)

[ncc1701e]

Thanks Flaviusx. For the Soviets, when you say ALL, does it include Airborne and Mountain corps? I was building everything Anti-Tank until now even the 120PP's rifle corps but my defense was awful. That is why I am trying Assault right now. Those rifle corps can reach 4-x with Assault.

I think this is more my defense than the type of infantry finally. [:(]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Indeed, I wish the Soviet reserves came in as AT rather than assault. (And some of these end up having to be disbanded and fed immediately into the mobilization machine. The last half dozen or so reserve armies are worthless. 39 assault tech and 30% experience at a time when the Sovs are pushing 50% experience and 42 tech. Not worth the bother of upgrading and bloodying in battle.)

With the new patch you can change the Advancement tech but you won't like it either given the -10% experience for those changing units, reserve units will be back at 39 assault tech and 20% experience. Not good.

[Flaviusx]

I don't think I'll be using that switch much. Certainly not on the reserve armies.

Get your build order right and you won't need it. But it *is* useful for, say, the Germans or Italians who don't want to research breakthrough but also are stuck with such mech units to begin with. Disbanding those is a big pill to swallow. Better to switch them out.

The other big use: I will no longer be disbanding Axis allied fighter bombers. They are worth keeping now and switching over to interceptors. This is kind of a big deal since you get no less than 3 of these units. Or, I suppose, even escort fighters.

For the allies, the British and Americans can easily switch over to escort fighters. I think the Soviets mostly want to stick with theirs interceptors.

[Flaviusx]

All means all. Airborne and mountain included. (But I rarely build these units. Airborne only after capping experience and late in the war. Mountain perhaps never. It's not a very cost effective unit for the Sovs compared to a rifle army.)

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Get your build order right and you won't need it.

Not only, I am building plenty of those Soviet rifle corps but I always screw up my defense during Barbarossa. Impossible for me so far to stop Germans against experienced player. [;)]

[Flaviusx]

I'll post a screen shoot of my defense at some point. My games against Magic Missile are going slowly right now due to summer silly season.

But a few basic principles:

1. Defend in depth. Most the entire original frontier should be occupied by your starting trash rifle corps. Set those in garrison mode. Don't upgrade them. You are going to lose all of these units in the first couple of turns. That's fine, their task is to delay. (And also to discourage mud offensives. The later the Germans start Barbarossa the better.)

2. Split your mech and armor into two groups. The northern group will deploy between the Dvina and Minsk and fall back towards the Smolensk gap. This is a dangerous area because it is clear terrain and if the Germans punch through it Moscow is in some trouble. The southern mech group will deploy about a half dozen hexes west and sw of Kiev and fall back towards the Dnepr.

3. The Dvina river should be held by new construction rifle corps from Riga to south of Pskov or so. They can fall back towards Leningrad. (Leningrad itself will get a bunch of reserve rifle armies occupying the marsh belt all the way down to Vitebsk.)

4. Cover the Pripyet marshes with your cav and a handful of rifle corps. The German is going to have a rough time clearing this area out and closing in on the Dnepr.

5. Cover the Pruth and Odessa with rifle corps. And then put some more rifle corps on the marshes of the lower Dnepr. They should be well dug in there long before the Axis arrive.

6. All ports should be garrisoned including possibly Arkangelsk if you see the Germans trying to sneak into it. The one new Soviet naval unit should go in the Black Sea to help patrol the zone. Add one or two bombers to the Black sea for additional naval interdiction. Don't let the German cheese their way into the Caucuses.

7. You'll need a small force to invade Persia. I use one HQ, one rifle corps, and one mech corps. That's enough to take Tehran out in 3-4 turns.

8. Place your interceptors in such a way as to discourage paradrops. Keep them 7+ hexes from your nearest units so they aren't baited into intercepting bombing runs on your units.

9. German grunts can only march up to two hexes a turn and have one MP left for an attack. Abuse this early on when you can trade some space for time and force the panzers to attack without infantry support.

10. You'll need 4 rifle corps to cover Karelia. Set it and forget it. There's two chokepoints along the Svir and two more can cover the rail line to Murmansk. If the Axis wants to go here anyways, send all your bombers up there (besides those need to patrol the Black Sea) and bomb the crap out of them. The logistics up here are terrible and it won't be easy for the Axis. But watch their deployments carefully and if Finland is heavily reinforced you might need more up here. Be wary of potential paradrops in Leningrad's rear. If you see Italians or Germans in Finland, that's a sure sign something is up and adjust accordingly.

[ncc1701e]

Thank you very much Flaviusx for all the advice, I am applying this asap.

[sveint]

I have a very different take on the Soviets. It's going to be tested in my latest AAR. We'll see how it goes.

[Flaviusx]

Why wait? Spill the beans now, I'm genuinely curious if there is more than one way to skin this cat.

[sveint]

I'm not going to recommend something I haven't tested.

[baloo7777]

Thank you Flaviusx, your insight/opinions on defending against Barbarossa is gold. I never thought about keeping interceptors back 7 hexes from your own units to not be decimated intercepting bombing runs and yet still be a discouragement from paradrops. I also never seem able to build enough infantry in time to man a complete secondary line (as with the better 30% infantry corps on the Dvina). Do you disband the 20% mech corps at the start of the game (and do you make 30% mech corps, just fewer)?

[Flaviusx]

I used to disband the trash rifle corps. Nowadays, I keep them. The latest iteration of the rifle corps bumped their CV from 1 to 2.

They are still ants, but they can actually be somewhat annoying ants now, especially when dug in and in bad terrain. They still die, but you can buy a couple of turns with the trash rifle corps.

Not only that, but as they die they yield precious experience for the Red Army. I've had opening Barbarossa turns with 14 dead rifle corps...and 3% experience gain. That is valid exchange from the bloody minded Soviet standpoint. After a couple of turns of them dying the Soviets will be over 40% experience. And building rifle armies with the blooded veterans.

So far as new construction rifle corps go: I build literally one every turn now from the beginning of the game all the way down to Barbarossa.

A vast army of crap rifle corps. A lot of the new ones will die, but they are great for holding manpower buckets. In prior games I was running into severe manpower problems early on, but with this mass of rifle corps, I can extend Soviet manpower by a year or more before it runs into a crunch.

[Flaviusx]

So far as mech/armor corps go what I do is this: I disband all the full strength mech corps and and the 2 point mech corps. The 1 pointers I leave alone because they can take replacements and reach nearly 30% experience immediately. This is adequate.

The armor corps I leave alone. Don't disband those.

I then build two fresh mech and armor corps after doing my disbands. And that is all the armor and mech I build until after the war starts. I've seen mech heavy builds. I don't think they work. I go the exact opposite way: lots and lots of infantry.

A dozen or so mech/armor corps to start with is fine. Enough to cover a couple of places with clear terrain corridors. Otherwise, I prefer to throw men at the Germans, and lots of them, and keep more men in bad terrain. Infantry in marshes, infantry in forests, and preferable infantry behind rivers. You can't have enough infantry. And that infantry will pay the butcher's bill for the Red Army to become Big Red in a year or so. You might start adding new construction mech and armor in the first winter when they can be build at 50% experience or nearly so.

[baloo7777]

Thanks. I tried building mech with the disbanded mech in a pbem game and by the end of 41 I was hurting for units of any kind. Think I'll give this a try next time.

[ncc1701e]

Thanks again for the advice. In one of my PBEM, my Red army is at 46% experience and this is December 1942. I do not even know how I have survived. [:D]
So I am attacking again and again to reach 50%. Perhaps this is already too late for Berlin.

First time, I am reaching 1943. I am happy since I am progressing.

[kennonlightfoot]

Defend in depth. Most the entire original frontier should be occupied by your starting trash rifle corps.

Great post Flaviux on defending Russia but I do have a few questions for calcification.

In the first item you say to defend the original frontier. Do you mean all of it? As in a line along the border or a line a few hexes back to avoid the benefit to the Germans of attacking without moving first? And, if somewhat further back, how much?

Is it worth while to put units in key close hexes that block roads knowing they will be quickly wiped out and others moving past, or just step the whole line back 2-3 hexes?

The other is "Defend in depth". The question is how to have enough units to do all this. A defense in depth takes a lot of units to to cover Norway, the Russian front, the Persian front, plus the rear and amphibious invasion points. What kind of build do you use and how many units can the Russians have in place by June 41?

[Flaviusx]

Not quite all of it. I don't defend the Bialystock salient, I prefer a straight north to south line that runs along the rivers in the north before going due south to Brest Litovsk.

There is another bulge just east of Hungary that I only defend with a single unit on the rail line next to Hungary. The true MLR is a bit further east.

Bessarabia, OTOH...yeah I put up a line of junk right up there in the face of the Romanians.

You need something like 40 new construction rifle corps to do this right. That's in addition to the trash you start with.

[Flaviusx]

If you build one every turn you can do this.

Just keep pumping out rifle corps. It's kind of lol. Infantry and more infantry and then some more infantry to go with your infantry.

[MagicMissile]

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Defend in depth. Most the entire original frontier should be occupied by your starting trash rifle corps.

Great post Flaviux on defending Russia but I do have a few questions for calcification.

In the first item you say to defend the original frontier. Do you mean all of it? As in a line along the border or a line a few hexes back to avoid the benefit to the Germans of attacking without moving first? And, if somewhat further back, how much?

Is it worth while to put units in key close hexes that block roads knowing they will be quickly wiped out and others moving past, or just step the whole line back 2-3 hexes?

The other is "Defend in depth". The question is how to have enough units to do all this. A defense in depth takes a lot of units to to cover Norway, the Russian front, the Persian front, plus the rear and amphibious invasion points. What kind of build do you use and how many units can the Russians have in place by June 41?

If you want to see what it looks like there is a screen shot in the Magicmissile (axis) vs Flaviusx AAR so many red units [:)].

/MM