Portugal: help needed

[ncc1701e]

I am playing Axis and we are in July 1942. Allies have invaded Portugal and are slowly building up there.
Spain is still neutral and Vichy France also.

Thus, I can't even fortify a defensive line in the Pyrenees.

So what should I do? Wait? [&:]

[AlvaroSousa]

Let them attack Spain and build up on their border think of where you want to delay and defend.

If you built 8 subs they would have other troubles.

[Omnius]

Sadly this looks like a player cheat to me and Alvaro should fix this so the Allies can't DoW Portugal. This is bogus gameplay.

My advice to Star Trek is to bend over and kiss his behind goodbye! Scotty can't beam him up. Plus he should have been smarter about using subs to counter a large fleet maneuver like this. There are uses for subs besides convoy raiding. Plus with Diplomacy the Axis could connive Spain into entry with plenty of chances to sway Spain diplomatically. No need to invade England.

[ago1000]

Do you have enough Axis around to take out Vichy out? If yes, then I would take out Vichy France and build a defense along the border of France and Spain. I would not wait. Any air you can spare from the Russian front I would bring as close to the border for air interdiction and supply interdiction. I agree with Alvaro, move some subs around to interdict and some surface fleets, hopefully they are available. The more transport ships you sink crossing, the less you need to worry about on land. When they do come across, the mountains and rough terrain will make a good defensive line when you dig in. Good luck and have fun.

Show the UK and US that resistance is futile.....[:)]

[Nirosi]

There are uses for subs besides convoy raiding.

I must say that I often give only minimal escort to my land units transported across sea as German subs in our games are only raiding (or raiding 99% of the time). A switch from time to time to on map anti-shipping could have surprised me the wrong way a few times![X(]

[AlvaroSousa]

As the Allies you should be focusing on taking out Italy. I don't know how well your Barb is doing or Battle of the Atlantic.

[malkarma]

I'm @ncc1701e opponent. So I´m going to answer by the comments that I´m aimed towards me (or at least, by that Im think ids directed against me).
First and foremost...no one except me and mty opponent have a goddam idea about the hell that have been BOA in our game, so maybe instead of telling my opponent about how much subs the should have used, would be better to ask him if he have used them at all.
Since some military disaster (that I´m not going to discuss here) that happenned during the game in summer '40, @ncc1701e choosed for a '42 Barbarossa, as well he solved that disaster. So between summer '40 and summer '41 he released hell onm my merchant navy. And when I said hell I meant the loss of 189 MM and 1 carrier. So be sure that if he had been unable to stop that invasion is because I have to work my ass to remove him from the Atlantic. Kudos to you ncc1701e, you made me bleed there for real.
Portugal invasion was also the result of something that happened in Africa, and that also commented with my opponent.
This said, @Omnius:

ORIGINAL: Omnius
Sadly this looks like a player cheat to me and Alvaro should fix this so the Allies can't DoW Portugal. This is bogus gameplay.

I think that your comment it's at least innapropiate. I'm just doing what the game let me do, and as far as I know I did not see you making this kind of comment in any thread in wich Axis players did a Sea LIon in wich they conquered all England except Liverpool, in order to get Spain in the Axis sides but avoiding an automatic US entry.
I can admit that invading Portugal is really cheap for the allies... as It was get Yugoslavia to the Axis or the fact the we can DOW Netherlands and Belgium one by one.
These situations are design decisions and we have to live with them (until the developer feel the need to fix them). Of course, if my opponent and I reach an agreement regarding some matters, for me that is like if that was written in the rulebook...everything else is free for all.

[battlevonwar]

You're facing the one place where an Allied Land Army can get fully supplied and access to both France, Italy and eventually Germany without immediate recourse. You can build all the u-boats you like and you can fortify the Hills... You will need a large army to defend against this. I have done it but the reality is how well as you've done up until this point in other regions is going to dictate how well you deal with this. If you have done poor you will likely get overrun and if you've done well you will likely have the forces to face this invasion force. D-Day happens in '42 in this game usually. . . The U-boats in The Dev's Theory would have eaten enough of the Production up to prevent this being an issue at this point, which I do think is possible. However you would then have an anemic force to face The USSR down since you've put up at least 1000-1500 in U-Boats. So -4 Panzers on the Eastern Front which could be essential...

Italy needs to be defended and so does France. I have faced this against 2 opponents and beat one cause the USSR was battered half to death and failed vs another cause I bled myself as the Axis too much. This isn't the end of the game, 2 or 3 hills and impassable mountains means you have 'some time'... to do something? But now you choose? Every decision made from '39 till now will dictate winner or loser soon! Or stalemate?

[ncc1701e]

I have seen the US transports coming.

I do not remember exactly but I have try before with Bismarck Grp to attack a surface fleet. It was at sea in Raider mode and I have taken the risk to go in Fleet mode. All I got was fail to find enemy. Thus, I did not even imagine attacking the transports with my surface or sub fleets.

Will try the next PBEM game. Now this is too late.

At least, a good Battle of Atlantic. I did not notice your carrier. [:)]

ORIGINAL: malkarma

And when I said hell I meant the loss of 189 MM and 1 carrier

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

Sadly this looks like a player cheat to me This is bogus gameplay.

This is a ridiculous and deeply offensive comment. This is a game which sets out to give both sides many opportunities to do ahistorical moves. If there is too much freedom for your taste, you can agree house rules to curb some of them and/or play other games which are more restrictive.

[malkarma]

Thanks

[Omnius]

@sillyflower - This is the kind of ahistorical garbage that paradox games puts in it's pathetic line of games. Sorry but the Allies weren't the ones going around invading peaceful countries, this is a pathetic bending of history just to get a sneaky underhanded advantage. I'd say that if Spain goes Axis then the Allies get to invade Portugal if the Axis doesn't do so first.

This is why I don't play PBEM, way too many cheaters who'll play any dirty trick to win.

[Omnius]

@malkarma - Yep the Yugoslavia cheap trick has been fixed and now Alvaro needs to fix this situation. I guess for now one cheap trick deserves another huh? Sorry but this is why I don't waste my time playing PBEM.

[ago1000]

@Malkarma
I just want to say that I meant no offence and hope none was taken with my response to the map above. If there was, I'd like to apologize. I thought I was responding to one of those Armchair General type scenarios, what would you do in a situation like this.

[Cigar King]

Sorry but the Allies weren't the ones going around invading peaceful countries, this is a pathetic bending of history just to get a sneaky underhanded advantage. I'd say that if Spain goes Axis then the Allies get to invade Portugal if the Axis doesn't do so first.

Personally I agree with this. The Allies can invade anyone, and it's completely ahistorical. The Allies should suffer serious consequences for invading a neutral, with the possible exception of Norway.

I'd suggest making Allied DoW an option, similar to diplomacy. Fortunately single player has little of this. I understand house rules accomplish this for PvP, but, if we're going to have a WW2 game, it should model WW2.

[malkarma]

ORIGINAL: ago1000

@Malkarma
I just want to say that I meant no offence and hope none was taken with my response to the map above. If there was, I'd like to apologize. I thought I was responding to one of those Armchair General type scenarios, what would you do in a situation like this.

You don't need to apologize me to me. I don't see any kind of comment by your side that would have been considered disrecpectful or offensive by any kind of sentient form of life

[malkarma]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

@malkarma - Yep the Yugoslavia cheap trick has been fixed and now Alvaro needs to fix this situation. I guess for now one cheap trick deserves another huh? Sorry but this is why I don't waste my time playing PBEM.

If you think that that was a cheap trick, I´m going to assume that you nbever played (and will never play) WWII tabletop games.
Because I´m going to tell you a secret...in every goddamm WWII game at strategical level, as soon as the US enters the war every neutral country is free fire area for the allies. IUn all of them.
Unless of course you think that WiF (and most of the games of this kind) are just tools to allow the devious minds of the players perform any obnoxious kind of ahistorical attrocity that crosses their mind.
This said, I really think that you are looking for a more railroaded game than this one. Maybe operational level ones are what you are looking for.

ps: I not really give a damn about what do you think, you are entitled to have an opinion, but you need to stop the "people are cheating" motto just because they do something that you think it shouldn´t be done.
ps2: Sorry for double post. I was quoting two different persons.
ps3: Fixed for typos.

[Omnius]

@malkarma,
I've been playing board games since the mid 1960's, solitaire and with others. Computer games since the advent of those solitaire and with others. If you haven't noticed I'm using a WiF unit icon, yes I play WiF and no I don't play crazy ahistorical strategies, I prefer plodding along rather historically and seeing if I can improve on that. I can think of quite devious moves but feel them beneath me.

Allowing the Allies to DoW Portugal makers a mockery of history and the whole Overlord problem the Allies faced. Invading Portugal is the easy way out for the Allies to do Overlord, obviously you eschewed taking on the problem of Overlord the tough historical way, through North Africa, Italy and France. You took the easy path of hiding behind Spain while you build up your invasion farce and can then blow through Spain at your leisure. Very Brave!

[Omnius]

@Alvaro,
I sure hope you'll look at how allowing the Allies to invade Portugal makes a mockery of history and your game. Why should any Allied player ever bother with the historical Overlord strategy if they're allowed to invade Portugal while hiding behind a neutral Spain? If the Axis player doesn't assume the worst and start preparing for this ahistorical cheap trick then this exploit of a bad rule will become standard operating procedure. Please fix this so that the Allies can't invade Portugal or any neutral country for that matter, it just wasn't in their nature. Yes Britain and France were tempted to make war on the USSR very early on because it stabbed their pal Poland in the back with Hitler. However they quickly realized that folly and throughout the war they never did the dastardly deed because they had ethics. Sadly too many players will throw ethics and historical reality out the window if they can exploit a poorly offered feature. Please don't allow the Allies to become the Axis, the other Evil Empire.

Right now I'm looking at France and Italy early on. How to exploit the new French colony garrison rule as the French. I'm sending oil to France from the UK and timing my colony bug out so that I can then use France to DoW Italy, but not the UK. If Italy does the DoW that tends to follow history. If Italy passes then I can DoW with France so I've got a few turns to abuse the French Navy in the Med while Italy is low on oil and will need big oil trade from Germany to catch up. There wouldn't even be a diplomatic penalty with the USA if this is done. It should work so that if the French do the colony bugout then Italy has the opportunity to DoW France but not the other way around. No UK first either, follow history and force it so that Italy makes the call and when it does that.

Ditto with Norway, the Allies should never be allowed to invade a neutral Norway. Too easy then to take Narvik then DoW Sweden and take the Iron before the Axis can respond. Considering how the Nordic trade route works to make it easy prey for British subs I definitely don't do the first turn trick any longer, not even against myself. When the Iron runs through the Nordic route the Allies will have their opportunity to raid it.

I prefer historical games that aren't too loose with history the way paradox's HOI4 warps reality beyond belief. I prefer they channel us into a fairly historical path, certainly with some deviation within historical guidelines.

[kennonlightfoot]

Allies did quite a bit of throwing their weight around. Even if you don't count all the countries the USSR invaded.
Iceland - occupied in May 40.
Ireland - UK took a few ports over.
Portugal - allowed US to use base in Azores, but they already had close alliance ties to UK.
Iran - occupied by Allies.
North Africa (Vichy) - invaded by US.
Iraq - seems there was a civil war there supported by UK air. UK seized some oil fields.
Norway - UK planned to invade, Germans got there first.

I am not sure how much advantage Portugal is to the UK. While easy to take it will absorb a lot of their early Landing capacity. Once there they will have to garrison it. As an invasion route to France and Germany, it isn't all that great. Major bottleneck at border between France and Germany. I've only had one opponent use this route. They lost.