Newbie playing as the Soviets: what am I doing?

[thecrazedlog]

Hey all:

I thought I'd try things the easy way and learn to play this game as the Soviets. You might argue that this is the hard way to learn, but I disagree: only one bloke has successfully invaded Russia (Mr G. Khan) and the other two failed rather badly. So I'm pretty sure I'm off to a good start with my logic.

I'm playing the grand campaign and while I've got some vague ideas about what to do (eg make sure you've got HQ units close by, try and get more oomphage in the one hex, supply is kinda important, encirclement is a thing, wipe your feet before coming in, so on and so forth) I can't help but escape the feeling I'm getting thumped. I've managed to form a defensive line based on Moscow and extending north and south and the first mud has just hit but I've taken an absolute pounding to this point.

I will happily admit I'm wrong and that I'm doing things incorrectly, but it seems the game is just a tad unbalanced at this point. I guess that's how it was in the real war but its a bit disheartening to tell your guys to do an orderly attack where they outnumber the enemy quite literally 4 to 1 and you end up with 3000 casualties and the enemy 10. Is this just what you have to put up with as the Soviets?

There's any number of tutorials to play as the Germans but precious few talking about the Russians it seems. If I may, I have a few questions. Actually, to be honest, I'm so confused about where to go I don't even know what questions to ask! But here goes:

- For the love of all that is holy, why must I go through one by one and set the HQ of a unit with four clicks? Please tell me there is some kind of bulk set ("g" doesn't really count in my mind, half the time it seems random)
- What can I do in the early war to retain some semblance of a defensive line/dignity/hope/anything? It seems to be a headlong retreat to the east (again, accurate but not ideal)
- How do you hold Leningrad? The Germans are bad enough but the Finnish are just plain brutal. I get smashed from both sides and before I know it I've lost it, perhaps in more ways than one
- Even at Moscow, I've got the place absolutely packed but it seems I may as well not be there. Whenever the Germans attack they just brush my units aside with insolent ease. And that's not a flanking attack either: its a head on attack.
- What are people's average turn length? Should I expect to spend 50 minutes on one turn? Do I really need to go through every possible menu screen and info screen to set things up? Or can they just be used very occasionally when I'm feeling bored?

I'm clearly doing something wrong and perhaps I've bought the wrong game, but I'd rather like to give it a decent go.

[CapAndGown]

Just a correction: Russia lost World War I.

[eskuche]

Not really sure where to start, but reading some AARs would definitely do you some good. It will clue you into as to what is typical in this game. This can match history or be completely irrational.

Turns can take 30 minutes to dozens of hours if you want to get it perfect...

[nukkxx5058]

Maybe the best way to learn how to play the Soviets is to play the Germans ... and watch what AI does.

Otherwise I would say:
- reorganise your army the best you can
- change counters colors to better see groups
- retreat eastward full speed
- bring reinforcements and organise a strong defnsive line
- take the first hits, wait for winter and strike back in spring

For me one turn takes between 1 and 3 hours in general

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: nukkxx5058

Maybe the best way to learn how to play the Soviets is to play the Germans ... and watch what AI does.

I watched what the Soviet AI does and I would advise against it. Instead, to better learn the Germans, I played against myself to see what a more intelligent defense might look like.

I endorse the idea of looking at some AARs to get some ideas. Grognard1812's AAR could serve as a guide.

My soviet turns can take hours. But I am hyper into micro-management.

[joelmar]

I usually play a turn in 3 evenings, one for each sector. But I'm also a little maniac on micro-management.

The way I see it is your army is like a race car. You can do minimal maintenance on it and still be able to go to the track on the week-end and race. But if you want to perform in the long term, you have to put some extra hours in the garage!

For the Soviet side, IMO the best strategy in 1941 is to take a leaf from Kutusov and Clausewitz: do all you can to preserve your troops at the expense of territory. The further the Germans advance, the less punching power they have because of supplies limitations and the widening of the front, while your own troops gain defensive power. So you need to learn the art of knowing when to retreat and when to hold. And retreat no more than necessary to achieve the aim of denying pockets to the Germans. Also, start early digging-in in front of Moscow and Leningrad, fort levels are your friends, watch out for units with high construction value and use them if possible to build forts in strategic areas. In the south, against strong German play, you will probably loose the Karkhov-Stalino area, but whatever happens, it's really hard for the Axis to go much further, as happened in RL, so no real need to put up some strong defenses there after the Germans are past the Dnepr. Rule of thumb, the important is to delay the advance which is generally achieved by giving up a few hexes every turn wherever possible until mud and blizzard. The German infantry is the secret weapon. The less those guys can reach and fight your front line units in force, the better it is. It forces the Germans to use their panzer troops to fight, which results in their weakening.

Chances of effective and safe counter attacks are rare for the Soviets in 1941. And everything you throw from the outside to try to open pockets will also be gobbled up by a good german player. In 1942, the Soviets start to become more resilient, by example they get guard units and their morale gets better, while the German war machine starts to slowly downgrade. The Soviets then begin to sometimes get good conditions for an effective counter-attack, and will get better losses ratio.

Soviet play must be a grind in this game, at least in the first 2 years.

[Seminole]

Think of morale and experience as % multipliers and you realize quickly why 90 morale, 90 exp can whip your stack of 30 morale 30 exp units.

.9*.9=.81
.3*.3=.09

Of course there is supply, and TOE equipment and innumerable other factors going into combat value, but early on (‘41-‘42) your army weak by comparison and this will slowly shift as your ranks fill and train up, and the underlying national morale levels shift.

Big task in 41 is using terrain as a strength multiplier and trying to avoid encirclements. Just keeping counters alive on the map is the early ‘41 goal.

Definitely read the AARa. The Soviet side has the task of building an army, whereas the Axis jus decide how to re-order theirs.

I’m trying to improve my own game by not spending so much AP re-assigning HQs, but staying better organized (keeping units with HQ instead of maybe optimally placing every unit and then fixing C3). I’m trying to spend the preserved AP on building up the Soviets subunits.

[eskuche]

More comments: for newer player pairings, Soviets will tend to win until Axis gets their game up to par. You don't need to win, just not lose. From there, I would say Axis gets the edge until fairly high skill levels. Of course, this is assuming the Soviet player gives up when a "good" Axis '41 campaign is seen.

I think Joelmar hits the big picture nail on the head. You need to retreat but as little as possible. Without knowing German capabilities (by having played them) you do not really know how much retreat is appropriate. You can then get pocketed then, having been burned once, run as much as possible to avoid it again, but this is also not the optimal play.

Seminole's multiplicative rule is pretty much absolutely correct. To extend it, CV is determined simplistically by unit xp * unit morale * leader morale rating * leader inf/mech rating * leader inf/mech rating again when attacking. Check out the CV rules as well: each roll is made TWICE. Two fail rolls halve the CV for that step, and two successes DOUBLE the CV. Good leaders will more often hit the doubling than the halving, making the expected much better for good leaders. This is why when you're attacking with 3-4 rating leaders (and 30-40 morale/experience units) you hit the halving roll so many times, leading to bad results.

As an example, a 5 rating gives you a 1/4 chance to halve, 1/2 chance to stay the same, and 1/4 chance to double. The expected value for a 5 rating roll is 1.125 times base CV. For a 9 rating (say, Model infantry or morale), it's 1% to halve, 18% to stay the same, and 81% to double. That's an expected CV of 1.81 of base CV. Take that down the line for each statistic and you see how these numbers will hugely favor Germany until blizzard at least.

For HQs, reassigning is (un)fortunately just part of the game. There is a huge mini-task of determining WHO is making forts and when you are making them. Fort construction value is heavily determined by unit experience, so do you want to keep your good original units (vs. later militia reinforcements with no XP) defending the front line or building forts? Where are you going to place your fort-building SUs? Where are you going to place actual fortified region units to start up forts? They can hold up to 3 SUs, which contribute their construction values. More overlooked is that they allow level 3.10 forts in all surrounding hexes. A very good German player will actually ignore forts because they can *always* be demolished with very few exceptions, but that's another story.

Also for HQs, are you aware of the rules for immediate HQs? German corps and Soviet armies (past turn 2) count as the immediate HQ, which means there are no rating drops regardless of the distance of the unit from the HQ. Yes, there is a supply penalty, but that is overwhelmingly a German concern.

For Leningrad, please read up on Finnish activation rules. Generally, they should not be participating in the fight until the Leningrad fight is decided already. If you want to defend Leningrad, you must do so starting at Pskov on turn 2. Take a look at some of the recent AARs regarding the Pskov defense. The German impetus is on turn 1-2, then every 3 or so turns afterwards for fuel concerns. If you can hold them at Pskov on turn 2, you can hold them at Pskov till turn 4-5. This requires having played the Axis to know these limitations.

Finally, playing Soviet can be demoralizing and punishing if you are not into it. However, that's what you sign up for. Historically, yes, there were many, many counterattacks but they were extremely costly, as you see is implemented in the game model.

[JoeLewis]

Some other AARs that helped me where Shalkai's gameplay AAR on the Matrix Forum and Redrum vs. Topolm, but I am not sure if the last one is only on the Discord.

Also, the Discord server has a noobs game for beginners where we try and talk about some of the more basic concepts of the Soviet defense. You should come observe us if you have questions.

[Protonic2020]

A bulk button to set all units HQ i found almost immediately, it´s there but that it´s optimal i doubt. I can put up a screenshot for you to see it exactly but it´s there for sure. I have payed just a little attention to this one since i bought several games in one go and played perhaps half of a small scenario so far and i say this for what it´s worth, perhaps nothing.
OK i still have a hard time to just do simple tasks here on the forum, delete comment, not a reply to the last one who commented here.

Threadstarter object, dislike any random settings of a units HQ so this reply is stupid.
Delete it