Italy joins the Axis in October 1939!

[Christolos]

I just had Italy join the Axis in October 1939 in a PBEM game with me as the Allies.[:(]

I haven't played SC-WaW in awhile and so was not entirely aware of the recent game change that has Italy swing more quickly to the Axis side if Allied ships poke around Italy too much like I foolishly did. According to the following game change for version 1.07.00: Mobilization_2 script for Italy added so they now have a 33% chance per turn of swinging 15-25% towards the Axis if there are any Allied Amphibious Transports within 20 hexes of Syracuse Port, or if they have 6 or more naval units within 12 hexes of Syracuse.

But I can’t see that alone moving Italy so fast to 99% mobilization by mid-October 1939???
I believe Italy starts out at 65% pro-Axis mobilized, so I must have gotten extremely unlucky to have it mobilize so quickly...


C

[Marcinos1985]

33% ain't exactly unlucky. If it jumped from 69 to 94%, Ita will mobilize at once. I believe above 90% is sufficient, no need to go up to 99%.
Did you move a unit from important location, like Gibraltar or Tunis? That may cause them to jump too.

[Christolos]

Actually it must have been at 65% to begin with because this is what I see when I start a new game against the AI.

I believe all I did was to have more than 6 naval units within 12 hexes of Syracuse on the first allied turn of September 15, 1939, and then also during the subsequent allied turn of October 13, 1939, where I suddenly noticed that Italy had jumped to 99% mobilization! The only other thing I did on this second turn, besides having more than 6 naval units within 12 hexes of Syracuse, was to poke around with subs and other ships to reveal Italian ships in their ports.

I must have triggered the 33% chance of swinging 15-25% twice in a row!

I won't be doing that again!

Thanks,

C

[pjg100]

On the other hand now you can have your way with the IT fleet and pound all their Libyan ports to rubble before they can transport more assets to NA. So there's that.

[taffjones]

Yes the change can be used by the Allied player to bring Italy in to the war way before they are ready.

If the Allied player plans it, they can take out NA and EA very early and totally screw Italy's NM by early 40.

I have had swarm's of Allied garrison units appearing in EA and a rush of the Allied spawn units from Egypt take Italy out in NA, with no chance of any support because of the amount of French and RN and Commonwealth navel units in the Med.

Take Tunis as soon as it goes Vichy and Italy is under threat of invasion with it's NM shot to pieces by mid 40.

Not the best conditions for Hitler to look to the East.

Game, Set and Match to the Allies.

[Elessar2]

Italy really needs a decision event allowing to declare on its own timetable, triggerable when its war % gets over say 75%.

[Christolos]

ORIGINAL: pjg100

On the other hand now you can have your way with the IT fleet and pound all their Libyan ports to rubble before they can transport more assets to NA. So there's that.

Indeed, this is what I am now trying. I already sank 3 Italian BBs (with subs and CVs) and heavily damaged a CA, but I am being killed in France with German and Italian troops trying to pour in from Italy towards Lyon and St-Etienne, and German troops smashing the French along the French German border in the North. It is the Allies (my) January 5th, 1940 turn, and I fear a full on attack by Germany in the North, will result in France falling super early, and if I am not careful, the destruction of the B.E.F too.[:(]

C

[Christolos]

ORIGINAL: taffjones

Yes the change can be used by the Allied player to bring Italy in to the war way before they are ready.

If the Allied player plans it, they can take out NA and EA very early and totally screw Italy's NM by early 40.

I have had swarm's of Allied garrison units appearing in EA and a rush of the Allied spawn units from Egypt take Italy out in NA, with no chance of any support because of the amount of French and RN and Commonwealth navel units in the Med.

Take Tunis as soon as it goes Vichy and Italy is under threat of invasion with it's NM shot to pieces by mid 40.

Not the best conditions for Hitler to look to the East.

Game, Set and Match to the Allies.

As I mentioned, I did not do this intentionally, but you are absolutely right, there are things the Allies can do to to offset a very early fall of France.

C

[Christolos]

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Italy really needs a decision event allowing to declare on its own timetable, triggerable when its war % gets over say 75%.

That sounds like a very interesting idea!

C

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: taffjones

I have had swarm's of Allied garrison units appearing in EA and a rush of the Allied spawn units from Egypt take Italy out in NA, with no chance of any support because of the amount of French and RN and Commonwealth navel units in the Med.

Take Tunis as soon as it goes Vichy and Italy is under threat of invasion with it's NM shot to pieces by mid 40.

Hi

Just so I can understand the situation properly I have a few questions. [:)]

Where are all the Garrisons coming from, and what exactly are they being used to do? Seeing as their attack values are low and they cannot undertake amphibious invasions, it is interesting to hear that they are playing a significant role.

Your second sentence suggests that the Allies invade Vichy Tunisia right after the fall of France. Is this not possible whenever Italy enters the war? I'm just trying to understand the significance of it in this instance.

Thanks

Bill

[taffjones]

Hi Bill

I think the garrisons were transported in to French & British Somaliland, As soon as Italy was triggered into joining the war.
They swarmed forwards 2 per settlement and started to reduce the supply. A couple of turns later Sudanese and Indian corps turn up and take out the low/out of supply Italian units with ease.
As far as I recall their were SA, Indian and possibly the Egyptian/Transjordan garrisons as well.

As for the second part, you have the starting British units + the mobilised units in Egypt + SA and Australian corps/HQ invade Libya, If forcing Italy into the war early is the Allied plan. The French Navy and RN are already in place to blockade the Italian NA ports and prevent any re-enforcements arriving.

So the Axis only has the starting units in place in both EA and NA. (I hadn't sent any of the units to EA via the DE's).
East Africa = 3x garrisons + 1 Corp
North Africa = 2x garrisons, 2x Army's + 5 stg HQ.
They are easily taken out by the time France surrenders and Vichy is formed.

The Allies then can DoW on Tunisia so by Sept/Oct 40 All of Africa is Allied (No need to take Algeria, but easily done if wanted). With Italy under the threat of invasion. Had it happen to me twice by different players when I have been playing as the Axis.

As a side note the changes to the deployment of the DAK haven't helped, as if they deploy early they usually miss out on a Tech upgrade plus they still deploy anywhere in Italy and not next to port hexes.

So it takes an additional turn to upgrade them and you still have the problem of getting them to NA when all the Axis ports have been reduced below 5.

So most players use them to take out Yugo or send them to the join the invasion of Russia, Which then adds to Allied players complaining of balancing issues in Russia.

I think the best option would be via a DE "Where for an additional cost they could be deployed directly in NA".

This would make the fight in both NA and Russia more even. Or If NA has been overrun/Axis player strategy is to let it fall then they can be deployed in Italy as it is now.

Hope this helps explain the situation.
Mike

[EarlyDoors]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

ORIGINAL: taffjones

I have had swarm's of Allied garrison units appearing in EA and a rush of the Allied spawn units from Egypt take Italy out in NA, with no chance of any support because of the amount of French and RN and Commonwealth navel units in the Med.

Take Tunis as soon as it goes Vichy and Italy is under threat of invasion with it's NM shot to pieces by mid 40.

Hi

Just so I can understand the situation properly I have a few questions. [:)]

Where are all the Garrisons coming from, and what exactly are they being used to do? Seeing as their attack values are low and they cannot undertake amphibious invasions, it is interesting to hear that they are playing a significant role.

Your second sentence suggests that the Allies invade Vichy Tunisia right after the fall of France. Is this not possible whenever Italy enters the war? I'm just trying to understand the significance of it in this instance.

Thanks

Bill

Its all too beautiful - do not touch it!!

So the early DoW on Italy may or may not occur - there is a % chance - it happened in this game maybe around Jan 1940 - in others 4 months later

Shipped ANZACs including HQ to Suez to seize Tobruk

The garrisons to EA were from India and were just a defensive method to try and hold Somaliland
until
the Malayan Corps could be shipped in too





I have no intention of losing Tunis btw

[BillRunacre]

Thanks for the feedback. [:)]

In terms of the Garrisons, one thing we could easily do would be to delay the arrival of some of them slightly, as they are really intended for the defense of their locality rather than offensive operations in a different continent.

One to think about.

[EarlyDoors]

unnecessary fiddlin -

.....perhaps garrisons should not be able to exert supply reduction on a resource



regarding Italy..the variable DoW is good but perhaps should be based upon the likelihood of them attaining glory rather than fear of invasion

ie. when French Morale is low and on the brink of collapse they should DoW

[EarlyDoors]

btw does

Mobilization_2 script for Italy added so they now have a 33% chance per turn of swinging 15-25% towards the Axis if there are any Allied Amphibious Transports within 20 hexes of Syracuse Port, or if they have 6 or more naval units within 12 hexes of Syracuse

..include if you have 2 units in the Malatese ports?

[BillRunacre]

Yes, as those units would be within the relevant radius for the script to fire.

Essentially, while Italy is neutral it would be very hard to keep an invasion force secret.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: taffjones

Yes the change can be used by the Allied player to bring Italy in to the war way before they are ready.

If the Allied player plans it, they can take out NA and EA very early and totally screw Italy's NM by early 40.

I have had swarm's of Allied garrison units appearing in EA and a rush of the Allied spawn units from Egypt take Italy out in NA, with no chance of any support because of the amount of French and RN and Commonwealth navel units in the Med.

Take Tunis as soon as it goes Vichy and Italy is under threat of invasion with it's NM shot to pieces by mid 40.

Not the best conditions for Hitler to look to the East.

Game, Set and Match to the Allies.

Ah this sounds horrible...

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Italy really needs a decision event allowing to declare on its own timetable, triggerable when its war % gets over say 75%.

That does sound like the best solution for the human players but how would the AI handle this?

[BillRunacre]

I have just thought of one or two things that might help here.

[Dorky8]

To me The Allies being able to force Italy to join early seems very poor..very poor