Unrestricted Submarine Warfare or No?

[Tanaka]

What is the consensus? Should you always pick this as Germans or wait for USA to enter war?

[Mithrilotter]

I wait for the US to enter. I feel that the immediate damage to Britain is outweighed by the immediate increase to the US march to war. The higher US readiness permanently sends more MPP's by convoy to Britain.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Yes, If used judiciously......

I've done it in late 1914 to early 1915, when there's bad weather and the British haven't got their ASW to 1 yet.
With this strategy, I have been able to close all of the UK's ports down. I watched the USA's mobilization and left off when it was getting into high 20%-mid 30% and my U-boats started to get pinned.

Pros:
a)can devastate British MMP generation as it will shut down the ports which will take some time to recover.
b)the British may have to lessen their presence on their blockade to deal with the subs.
c)submarines can do this submerged and won't expend precious supply in doing so.
d)adverse affects on British NM and positive affects for German NM.

Cons:
a)permanent raise of USA mobilization.
b)early loss(es) of Germany's U-boats, which are one of her most potent weapons.

There are other pros and cons for this strategy, and I welcome any input on this topic as this is just my opinion.

[Chernobyl]

I'm confused how many subs you need to shut down the route. Sometimes I have 4+ subs on the NM hexes and nothing happens, and sometimes it works with one sub. Are certain hexes more effective than others? And I still am not completely sure if you even need to be ON the hex or adjacent to it because a popup message for unrestricted sub warfare comes up even if I am only adjacent.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Yes, If used judiciously......

I've done it in late 1914 to early 1915, when there's bad weather and the British haven't got their ASW to 1 yet.
With this strategy, I have been able to close all of the UK's ports down. I watched the USA's mobilization and left off when it was getting into high 20%-mid 30% and my U-boats started to get pinned.

Pros:
a)can devastate British MMP generation as it will shut down the ports which will take some time to recover.
b)the British may have to lessen their presence on their blockade to deal with the subs.
c)submarines can do this submerged and won't expend precious supply in doing so.
d)adverse affects on British NM and positive affects for German NM.

Cons:
a)permanent raise of USA mobilization.
b)early loss(es) of Germany's U-boats, which are one of her most potent weapons.

There are other pros and cons for this strategy, and I welcome any input on this topic as this is just my opinion.

Thanks guys!

Other cons I see:

Such naval activity will also have a 75%
chance per turn in which unrestricted attacks are being carried
out of prompting the US to swing towards the Entente by 1-4%.

Central Powers' naval units will also have a chance of sinking the
Lusitania at some point, which would trigger a separate US swing
towards the Entente.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

I'm confused how many subs you need to shut down the route. Sometimes I have 4+ subs on the NM hexes and nothing happens, and sometimes it works with one sub. Are certain hexes more effective than others? And I still am not completely sure if you even need to be ON the hex or adjacent to it because a popup message for unrestricted sub warfare comes up even if I am only adjacent.

I think it is one per 4 zones to shut down all NM up to 300...

[MVP7]

Playing against the AI I saw fairly little reason not to wage the unrestricted submarine warfare. I had destroyed the entire Entente navy pretty early on on had most of my subs around the target hexes for most of the war. Even then US didn't enter the war until late 1917 (if I remember correctly) and that was with Lusitania sinking and after I sent the Zimmermann telegram just to agitate them (I had pretty much won the war but wanted to try out my new tanks). One thing that might have affected this was an old bug that reset the Ottoman mobilization to zero and kept them out of the war which might have slowed down the US mobilization somewhat.

The effect on British NM and MPP was significant over the years and I suspect that (together with the massive MN hit they took from losing their navy) hastened their defeat quite a bit. Then again, if the game hadn't ended in late 1917 I suspect the faster US involvement would have started working against me. Overall the unrestricted submarine warfare feels like it'll help the CP until late 1917 and then it will turn into a mistake in hindsight. (That's one reason I prefer SC:WW1's more open ended strategic setting to that of the WW2 which is generally decided by 1941-1942 and the rest is just waiting for the inevitable [:)].)

---

I have one question regarding the unrestricted submarine warfare: You can technically stop unrestricted sinking any time by pulling away your subs, but is the option to start it offered to the player only once? It seems like something that should be offered to the player on several occasions over the war.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

In answer to Chernobyl: Yes, the CP has to place the submarine On the hex. Bill answered that somewhere on another thread not to long ago.

In answer to MVP7: The Unrestricted Warfare can be offered again if a cp ship moves on one of those hexes..so it can be applied repeatedly, somewhat like a tourniquet, or perhaps more like a garrot.

In addition, I also am not quite sure if there are NM sea hexes that enhance or trigger events in Birmingham for example or not, but it sure seems so.

Example: In a pbem match, I managed to get a submerged U-boat on the second closest NM hex away of Bristol Port. My opponent was all over the place trying to find the sub just outside the bay, and even moved over it, for at least 3 turns. Then the convoy route went down, and soon after the sub was found. I wanted to get it out but it got pinned, and finally sunk. Mean while, seeing this affect on the British, I went all in with my remaining subs submerged and scattered them around these NM spots. All three of his ports and convoy routes went down. I finally lifted this Unrestricted Warfare when the USA went to about 33% (iirc) and my subs were ready to advance to lvl 1. I lost 1 more sub as they headed home. The result..according to my opponent, was devastation to the British economy and a the resultant lag it had through 1915. In that game, I didn't go back and try that again...and eventually my opponent overcame this disaster and won the war.

Anyway..hope that illuminates at least partially these effects.

btw Tanaka, I see why your asking these questions now, as I have a swarm of your U-boats off Cornwall to deal with.
[:'(]

[mdsmall]

In my games against the AI, I never tried the unrestricted submarine warfare option (nor did the AI try it against me when I played the Entente). How do German subs shut down the British ports? Do they have to be adjacent to the port hexes, like surface ships. Or does merely sitting on the NM hexes have that effect? And does it take two Germans subs on two different sub hexes to reduce the a British port by 1, or is it faster? Finally, can subs have this effect if they are in Silent mode? Thanks in advance.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

In my games against the AI, I never tried the unrestricted submarine warfare option (nor did the AI try it against me when I played the Entente). How do German subs shut down the British ports? Do they have to be adjacent to the port hexes, like surface ships. Or does merely sitting on the NM hexes have that effect? And does it take two Germans subs on two different sub hexes to reduce the a British port by 1, or is it faster? Finally, can subs have this effect if they are in Silent mode? Thanks in advance.

Only takes one sub on the hex and silent mode works yes on morale and port destruction. In hunt mode it will do both of those and MPP destruction.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

In answer to Chernobyl: Yes, the CP has to place the submarine On the hex. Bill answered that somewhere on another thread not to long ago.

In answer to MVP7: The Unrestricted Warfare can be offered again if a cp ship moves on one of those hexes..so it can be applied repeatedly, somewhat like a tourniquet, or perhaps more like a garrot.

In addition, I also am not quite sure if there are NM sea hexes that enhance or trigger events in Birmingham for example or not, but it sure seems so.

Example: In a pbem match, I managed to get a submerged on the second closest NM hex away of Bristol Port. My opponent was all over the place trying to find the sub just outside the bay, and even moved over it, for at least 3 turns. Then the convoy route went down, and soon after the sub was found. I wanted to get it out but it got pinned, and finally sunk. Mean while, seeing this affect on the British, I went all in with my remaining subs submerged and scattered them around these NM spots. All three of his ports and convoy routes went down. I finally lifted this Unrestricted Warfare when the USA went to about 33% (iirc) and my subs were up to go to lvl 1. I lost 1 more sub as they headed home. The result..according to my opponent, was devastation to the British economy and a the resultant lag it had through 1915. In that game, I didn't go back and try that again...and eventually my opponent overcame this disaster and won the war.

Anyway..hope that illuminates at least partially these effects.

btw Tanaka, I see why your asking these questions now, as I have a swarm of your U-boats off Cornwall to deal with.
[:'(]

Very interesting I always thought it was just a one time decision.

Another question: If you do not select unrestricted submarine warfare it seems that the US objects to the Entente blockade more and US war entry goes down more? I am seeing that message now since I went with no unrestricted at this time. Nice to know I can change my mind at anytime...

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

In my games against the AI, I never tried the unrestricted submarine warfare option (nor did the AI try it against me when I played the Entente). How do German subs shut down the British ports? Do they have to be adjacent to the port hexes, like surface ships. Or does merely sitting on the NM hexes have that effect? And does it take two Germans subs on two different sub hexes to reduce the a British port by 1, or is it faster? Finally, can subs have this effect if they are in Silent mode? Thanks in advance.

Only takes one sub on the hex and silent mode works yes on morale and port destruction. In hunt mode it will do both of those and MPP destruction.

The ports can get shut down given time and numbers of ships. I believe proximity may be a factor also. Silent mode (submerged) will work and it preserves the subs supply so it can linger longer and or resist attacks. Having a sub on the surface (raider) can have double the bang if its on a NM hex, has declared unrestricted warfare, and is also astride or on top of a convoy line. However, that sub is way vulnerable to attack.

The trick is not to linger in one place long, and have multiples of subs doing this. Its a very risky high wire act to do these kind of operations but the game does a good job at least with this aspect of naval warfare and is very exhilarating (against a human opponent anyway) if you choose to do this.

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
I believe proximity may be a factor also.

Can someone confirm or deny that proximity (different NM hexes which are closer rather than farther away from the big British ports) increase the chance of a convoy route shutdown?

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
I believe proximity may be a factor also.

Can someone confirm or deny that proximity (different NM hexes which are closer rather than farther away from the big British ports) increase the chance of a convoy route shutdown?

Never heard of proximity affecting anything before. And I thought only one sub on port attack hex was all that could affect the port level. Does more than one on another adjacent one make it go down faster at the same time? Multiple points in one turn? Also all you need to shut down the port is to make it less than 5 each turn.

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
And I thought only one sub on port attack hex was all that could affect the port level. Does more than one on another adjacent one make it go down faster at the same time?

I believe you're referring to the red hexes near ports like Halifax or New York or north of Turkey. I think two subs double the damage rate from what I remember but I'm not 100% sure.

[Chernobyl]

And I do intend on attempting it, but not if I believe my opponent has a giant horde of destroyers near the NM hexes. If so, I'll choose regular convoy raiding in random spread out locations.

But I think once my opponent gets lots of spying/intel tech it becomes extremely dangerous to do any sub warfare and especially the unrestricted/NM hex raiding. Free detection of one of my subs from intel absolutely wrecks it if it's near the enemy death swarm.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
And I thought only one sub on port attack hex was all that could affect the port level. Does more than one on another adjacent one make it go down faster at the same time?

I believe you're referring to the red hexes near ports like Halifax or New York or north of Turkey. I think two subs double the damage rate from what I remember but I'm not 100% sure.

Yes talking about the port damage hexes since you mentioned port level. Are the NM and port level hexes not combined in some spots near England?

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

And I do intend on attempting it, but not if I believe my opponent has a giant horde of destroyers near the NM hexes. If so, I'll choose regular convoy raiding in random spread out locations.

But I think once my opponent gets lots of spying/intel tech it becomes extremely dangerous to do any sub warfare and especially the unrestricted/NM hex raiding. Free detection of one of my subs from intel absolutely wrecks it if it's near the enemy death swarm.

Yeah this game is a lot harder to use subs and the death swarms are inevitable...