Question on AI Allied Strategic Bombing Targets/Behavior

[skraft16]

So, I have the original version of WITP, and I finally decided that I had the time to take the plunge and buy the Admiral's Edition.

So I thought I would play a campaign game vs. the AI to acquaint myself to the "new" edition. I would like to know if the allies, when controlled by the AI, specifically target oil or resource facilities in the admirals edition, or if they mostly do "manpower" and HI/LI attacks.

I found that in the original edition, attacks on oil fields and resource sites were overpowered. In my one PBEM game using the original edition, once I had secured the SW Pacific and Burma, I committed nearly every Japanese army bomber squadron to repeated attacks on Chinese factories, and especially the Chinese oil and resource sites. The Chinese army then starved and were mopped up by mid-1943. Of course, payback is a female dog, and the Americans can do this to the Japanese home islands late in the game and then mop up the ill-supplied Japanese Home Army.

Things got to the point that I started championing a house rule against any strategic bombing except for industry and manpower attacks, to keep this ahistorical economic devastation from happening. It seems cheesey to me that you should be able to bomb farms/rubber plantations/mines and oil fields directly and that should have such an impact.

So, does anyone know if the allied AI or AI in general goes after resource and oil sites specifically, or does it do pretty much do all manpower or industry attacks?

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: skraft16
So, does anyone know if the allied AI or AI in general goes after resource and oil sites specifically, or does it do pretty much do all manpower or industry attacks?

AI does bomb oil fields occasionally when they are in range and it has an opportunity, but to my knowledge it never does targeted campaigns with ample assets. E.g. when I captured AI Los Angeles, its oil was in range of massed air from SF but a small CAP was enough to discourage AI from even appearing above LA, not mentioning pulverizing LA oil.

[skraft16]

Thanks, GetAssista

I notice in reading the Admiral's Edition manual that resource centers/sites now only produce resources. As I recall, they used to produce some supply points in the original WITP edition. This made them important targets for air attacks if you wanted to better starve enemy military forces of supplies. Now, you should really worry about hitting heavy and light industry if you want to do that, as these facilities seem to be the only source of supply points.

[Uncivil Engineer]

ORIGINAL: skraft16

Thanks, GetAssista

I notice in reading the Admiral's Edition manual that resource centers/sites now only produce resources. As I recall, they used to produce some supply points in the original WITP edition. This made them important targets for air attacks if you wanted to better starve enemy military forces of supplies. Now, you should really worry about hitting heavy and light industry if you want to do that, as these facilities seem to be the only source of supply points.

In my opinion, heavy industry should be the primary Allied target (after oil) as it has the greatest impact on Japanese industry. Without HI points there can be no aircraft. Don't worry too much about what the AI does; in any event it cheats.

[mind_messing]

Things got to the point that I started championing a house rule against any strategic bombing except for industry and manpower attacks, to keep this ahistorical economic devastation from happening. It seems cheesey to me that you should be able to bomb farms/rubber plantations/mines and oil fields directly and that should have such an impact.

Where's the cheese? The installations you've listed were (and are) legitimate targets for bombers. As for the ahistorical economic devastation, much of China and South-East Asia would beg to differ.

Try playing with the historical mindset of actually having to worry about raids on your industry.

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer

ORIGINAL: skraft16

Thanks, GetAssista

I notice in reading the Admiral's Edition manual that resource centers/sites now only produce resources. As I recall, they used to produce some supply points in the original WITP edition. This made them important targets for air attacks if you wanted to better starve enemy military forces of supplies. Now, you should really worry about hitting heavy and light industry if you want to do that, as these facilities seem to be the only source of supply points.

In my opinion, heavy industry should be the primary Allied target (after oil) as it has the greatest impact on Japanese industry. Without HI points there can be no aircraft. Don't worry too much about what the AI does; in any event it cheats.

Strong disagree here.

Heavy industry points can be "banked", and so the effect of strategic bombing will be delayed. I'd also challenge the impact reduced HI points will have on the Japanese economy - fuel and then supply is the bottleneck for the IJ war machine, long before HI points become problematic.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: skraft16

Thanks, GetAssista

I notice in reading the Admiral's Edition manual that resource centers/sites now only produce resources. As I recall, they used to produce some supply points in the original WITP edition. This made them important targets for air attacks if you wanted to better starve enemy military forces of supplies. Now, you should really worry about hitting heavy and light industry if you want to do that, as these facilities seem to be the only source of supply points.

I am playing 1126a, stock scenario 1 and the refinery centers still produce 1 supply point per turn per center. Some mods like DBB removed that supply point in favour of the extra fuel point per turn.

As for bombing other industry being ahistorical, one of the rationales for carpet bombing cities was dispersed LI in the city. LI can be a food warehouse, a home with a couple of sewing machines making uniforms, a small plant producing bullets from supplied components - almost anything that doesn't need cranes and huge presses. The game models this well - attacking LI directly yields little results but attacking Manpower (homes) results in fires that knock out a lot of industry of all kinds.

Resource centers like coal mines and such can be shut down by destroying the hoist for the vertical mine shaft or the tracks and engines/rail cars for a horizontal mine stope. Oil centers have to stop producing if their storage tanks or pipeline are destroyed. Armament centers are more like HI - manufacturing artillery and AA guns - big enough facilities to be targeted. (I think rifles and mgs are covered by LI.) Vehicle centers would be similarly large enough to target.




Note that these industry centers are usually damaged rather than destroyed, so they can be repaired if you invest the 1000 supply per center.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: skraft16

So, I have the original version of WITP, and I finally decided that I had the time to take the plunge and buy the Admiral's Edition.

So I thought I would play a campaign game vs. the AI to acquaint myself to the "new" edition. I would like to know if the allies, when controlled by the AI, specifically target oil or resource facilities in the admirals edition, or if they mostly do "manpower" and HI/LI attacks.

I found that in the original edition, attacks on oil fields and resource sites were overpowered. In my one PBEM game using the original edition, once I had secured the SW Pacific and Burma, I committed nearly every Japanese army bomber squadron to repeated attacks on Chinese factories, and especially the Chinese oil and resource sites. The Chinese army then starved and were mopped up by mid-1943. Of course, payback is a female dog, and the Americans can do this to the Japanese home islands late in the game and then mop up the ill-supplied Japanese Home Army.

Things got to the point that I started championing a house rule against any strategic bombing except for industry and manpower attacks, to keep this ahistorical economic devastation from happening. It seems cheesey to me that you should be able to bomb farms/rubber plantations/mines and oil fields directly and that should have such an impact.

When you get to PBEM, almost all games include a HR against strategic bombing in China for that reason....it's too easy to decimate the Chinese

In general in WITP-AE, the limitation for the Empire is usually supply. Bombing OIL will hurt supply production (eventually downstream OIL is converted to SUPPLY), and bombing HI will hurt supply production. Bomb those. Bombing LI also helps, but LI is more dispersed.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: skraft16

So, I have the original version of WITP, and I finally decided that I had the time to take the plunge and buy the Admiral's Edition.

So I thought I would play a campaign game vs. the AI to acquaint myself to the "new" edition. I would like to know if the allies, when controlled by the AI, specifically target oil or resource facilities in the admirals edition, or if they mostly do "manpower" and HI/LI attacks.

I found that in the original edition, attacks on oil fields and resource sites were overpowered. In my one PBEM game using the original edition, once I had secured the SW Pacific and Burma, I committed nearly every Japanese army bomber squadron to repeated attacks on Chinese factories, and especially the Chinese oil and resource sites. The Chinese army then starved and were mopped up by mid-1943. Of course, payback is a female dog, and the Americans can do this to the Japanese home islands late in the game and then mop up the ill-supplied Japanese Home Army.

Things got to the point that I started championing a house rule against any strategic bombing except for industry and manpower attacks, to keep this ahistorical economic devastation from happening. It seems cheesey to me that you should be able to bomb farms/rubber plantations/mines and oil fields directly and that should have such an impact.

When you get to PBEM, almost all games include a HR against strategic bombing in China for that reason....it's too easy to decimate the Chinese

In general in WITP-AE, the limitation for the Empire is usually supply. Bombing OIL will hurt supply production (eventually downstream OIL is converted to SUPPLY), and bombing HI will hurt supply production. Bomb those. Bombing LI also helps, but LI is more dispersed.

No, the strategic bombing house rule exists because detailing squadrons to provide CAP over strategic targets isn't "fun".

China stands or falls depending on external supply getting in. The native supply production helps, but it's the supply brought from elsewhere that's the deciding factor.

[skraft16]

Maybe I should restrict my Japanese bombers (playing Japan in this campaign game vs. Allied AI + hard difficulty + no withdrawls + reliable USN torpedoes) to just manpower attacks on Chinese cities if the Americans are mostly going to be doing manpower attacks on Japanese cities if they get B-29 bases in range. My original question was because I didn't want to be a "chump" and withhold specific attacks on the Chinese supply production infrastructure if late in the game the AI-controlled US Air Force was going to start targeting my supply infrastructure in the Home Islands versus general manpower attacks on cities. I am sure I will do well against the AI on many levels, but I want the game to be some test, and not decimate China too easily and then move the China army to Manchuria and overwhelm the Russians, etc.

I'm not overly worried about oil field attacks specifically, because by the time the Americans can attack these in a meaningful way it will be probably be late 1944 for a concerted B-29 offensive from Darwin or western New Guinea and/or major allied carrier strikes against the oil fields in Borneo and Palembang. By then, you have most of the oil/fuel you need out of the DEI, or you got some terrible RNG and had a lot of key oil production/refining centers badly damaged upon capture, or the U.S. submarines have sunk lots of your tankers and AKs.

As for the guy who said that you can repair damaged industry and other items at 1K supply per point, then of course you are looking at a 1-and-1/2 to 3 year payback (depending on what you repair) until your repair investment returns the supplies you spent on it, plus the Japanese can continue bombing what you just repaired. Certainly for most of 1942 and maybe well into 1943, the allied air forces in China are too weak to stop a Japanese player using massed bombers and a few squadrons of long range fighters to strategic bomb Chinese cities. And the AI is probably not smart enough to know that it is spending itself into supply poverty by repeatedly repairing bombed sites.

[rustysi]

So, I have the original version of WITP, and I finally decided that I had the time to take the plunge and buy the Admiral's Edition.

You're obviously new to this game, do yourself a favor and don't compare it to WitP. They are two independent beasts. And another thing, it you think having played the 'original' has any relation to this 'time vampire' of a game you as sadly mistaken. This game has a 'learning cliff' the likes of which you've most likely never seen.

TBH though if you dedicate the time needed you will have what is likely the best gaming experience of your life. Good luck.[8D]

[RangerJoe]

To stop the production of Japanese aircraft, bomb the engine factories. Decide which engines Japan needs for his best fighter aircraft and concentrate on those factories.

Bomb the oil and not the refineries. Japan has excess refinery capacity. The computer will use supplies to repair the infrastructure so don't capture Miri too early. Against a human, bring in fighters for CAP and AAA right away for any oil center.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
To stop the production of Japanese aircraft, bomb the engine factories. Decide which engines Japan needs for his best fighter aircraft and concentrate on those factories.

Any intermediate JFB would know to build healthy engine reserve for late years, specifically as a counter for the above. And it is easy since engine R&D repair is so fast. Having a reserve of late generation fighters is not that easy in comparison, so bomb those factories as Allies.