Inrease upgraded infantry de-entrenchment?

[Chernobyl]

So I am thinking of ways to make the game better, and artillery is the #1.

But assuming I can make artillery less powerful, more realistic and more fun, there's a danger of defense being too powerful leading to stalemates and crowded fronts.

Assuming I CAN weaken artillery in a cool way, I am considering STRENGTHENING infantry and/or tank attacks. Namely I am considering increasing infantry de-entrenchment from 1 to 2 when it gets upgraded to level 2 (stormtroopers). Similarly, tanks could get increased de-entrenchment at some level (2-3 maxumum).

Hopefully this would make attacks possible, but the first couple units which attack might take big losses. That sounds like WWI to me though! I imagine artillery firing only a couple times, de-entrenching twice or so, then it's up to the stormtroopers to do the rest of the work. Artillery should be doing important work, but it should only be able to do so much. WWI attacks were costly.

Does that sound like a good or bad idea to you guys? Cool idea or too powerful?

[mdsmall]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

I am considering increasing infantry de-entrenchment from 1 to 2 when it gets upgraded to level 2 (stormtroopers).

I am glad that you have raised this idea, as I have wondered for a while why there is no explicit provision for the German stormtroopers (stosstruppen) in the game. They were a key part of German campaign strategy at the end of the war, in particular in their last great offensive in the West in April 1918.

Your suggestion would be one way of reflecting this innovation in German infantry tactics. Other ways that occur to me would be to allow Germany to have one higher level in infantry warfare tech than the other majors and when Germany reached that level, its infantry would have greater de-entrenching power, along the lines you suggest. This would explicitly recognize that doctrinal advantage that Germany developed in infantry tactics late in the war. (It could be balanced by giving the UK something comparable for tanks at higher level of armoured warfare tech which only they could achieve). Perhaps investment in these new higher tech levels could be time-limited - say only after April 1917.

The downside of this approach is that all German infantry would get this advantage, once the higher tech level was achieved. Another way of reflecting the German storm-troopers would be to give German infantry corps that have elite reinforcements additional capacity either to de-entrench and/or to advance after combat ignoring enemy zones of control. The latter capacity would well reflect the essence of German stosstruppen tactics, as I understand them. It would also give an important additional reason for the CP player to invest in elite reinforcements for his German infantry corps.

I am not aware if any of the Allied armies developed elite units comparable to the German stormtroopers. Perhaps the same capability could be given to certain designated Entente formations that achieved a high degree of skill in trench fighting later in the war, e.g. the Canadian and ANZAC corps - if the British players invests in giving them elite reinforcements.

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: mdsmall


I am glad that you have raised this idea, as I have wondered for a while why there is no explicit provision for the German stormtroopers (stosstruppen) in the game. They were a key part of German campaign strategy at the end of the war, in particular in their last great offensive in the West in April 1918.

Your suggestion would be one way of reflecting this innovation in German infantry tactics. Other ways that occur to me would be to allow Germany to have one higher level in infantry warfare tech than the other majors and when Germany reached that level, its infantry would have greater de-entrenching power, along the lines you suggest. This would explicitly recognize that doctrinal advantage that Germany developed in infantry tactics late in the war. (It could be balanced by giving the UK something comparable for tanks at higher level of armoured warfare tech which only they could achieve). Perhaps investment in these new higher tech levels could be time-limited - say only after April 1917.

The downside of this approach is that all German infantry would get this advantage, once the higher tech level was achieved. Another way of reflecting the German storm-troopers would be to give German infantry corps that have elite reinforcements additional capacity either to de-entrench and/or to advance after combat ignoring enemy zones of control. The latter capacity would well reflect the essence of German stosstruppen tactics, as I understand them. It would also give an important additional reason for the CP player to invest in elite reinforcements for his German infantry corps.

I am not aware if any of the Allied armies developed elite units comparable to the German stormtroopers. Perhaps the same capability could be given to certain designated Entente formations that achieved a high degree of skill in trench fighting later in the war, e.g. the Canadian and ANZAC corps - if the British players invests in giving them elite reinforcements.

I find these ideas interesting. I agree that the German Stosstruppen seem to have been qualitatively different from other German infantry and that they might be best represented by Infantry Warfare Tech 3 (probably only available to Germany in 1918). David Stevenson writes about The German infantry manuals "The Attack in Position Warfare" (which was distributed to officers in January 1918) and the "Training Manual for Foot Troops in War" which gave instructions for small assault squads of infantrymen (around 10 soldiers in each). He says that Ludendorf selected only a quarter of his infantry as "attack divisions" because he realised older soldiers could not operate as stosstruppen. 56 divisions were taken out of the line and given this stosstruppen training (using flamethrowers, machine guns, mortars etc), which lasted for 3 weeks. Artillery units were also trained to support these new infantry tactics (e.g. creeping barrages, use of gas to neutralise enemy artillery etc). At the beginning of 1918 Germany had 191 divisions on the Western Front so 56 divisions represents around 30% of the total.

So, in light of this, you wouldn't want all German infantry units to have this extra ability. At the moment Germany has differently named infantry units, but they all have the same basic stats. There are Guards units, infantry from various regions like Saxony, Bavaria and Wurttemburg, numbered corps units, and reserve divisions. To make things easy you could just set a numerical limit on the number of stosstruppen trained units available, however defined, but the Reserve Divisions could not be allocated this feature at all.

In terms of other elite infantry units, I think the Guards units were the main ones. Germany has Guards units and I think the Russians do as well. The British Expeditionary Force did comprise of Guards regiments in August 1914, but they are just presented as numbered corps in the game, presumably because these Guards regiments were only a part of the overall initial deployment. I don't know if there is a case for making these Guards units better than the other units in the game, or at least allow them to access "Elite Reinforcements" straight away. Something else to think about.[:)]

[Chernobyl]

To be clear I wasn't thinking of giving such a giant advantage to the Germans I think it should be available to everyone. I know the Germans had their famous stormtroopers and all. Perhaps I could create "stormtrooper tactics" tech +1 de-entrenchment for infantry corps and give it a starting date and cost, slightly cheaper/faster for Germans.

On the topic of stormtroopers I also don't see anything wrong with halving the cost of elite reinforcements. As it is I think these units often get specifically targeted for elimination by artillery and the price of elites makes me think twice about using them for attack at least before the late game. I think seeing more of these guys around could add another small element of strategy and fun.

[Ktonos]

The British have their ANZAC special corps with their own demorialization bonus. Germans could have their own special corps called Stormtroopers. Maybe not even corps, probably divisions or even detachments with high de entrench and demoralization and limited builds (maybe 3)

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Ktonos

The British have their ANZAC special corps with their own demorialization bonus. Germans could have their own special corps called Stormtroopers. Maybe not even corps, probably divisions or even detachments with high de entrench and demoralization and limited builds (maybe 3)

Good point!

[shri]

The old game, WW1 Gold, allowed Germans to build 5 detachment size attachments to Corps which were used for breakthrough, they could be built from mid 1916 onwards and deployed only in early 1917 onwards. Only Germany got 5, Austria got 1, Russia got 1, Italy got 1, France and USA both got 1 and UK got 3 to denote the Guards, Anzacs and Canadians.
So, maybe corps can get designated as that and start.

All the countries have a special corps mostly Guards, some like French have colonials or Italians have their Alpini.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: shri

The old game, WW1 Gold, allowed Germans to build 5 detachment size attachments to Corps which were used for breakthrough, they could be built from mid 1916 onwards and deployed only in early 1917 onwards. Only Germany got 5, Austria got 1, Russia got 1, Italy got 1, France and USA both got 1 and UK got 3 to denote the Guards, Anzacs and Canadians.
So, maybe corps can get designated as that and start.

All the countries have a special corps mostly Guards, some like French have colonials or Italians have their Alpini.

That would actually be a nice feature for SC-WW1. Attachments can be made to select divisional units in WitE..like pioneers or artillery for example.