Help - High Altitude Sweeps

[Andy Mac]

I recently took on a game and the HR in place was no HL sweeps beyond 2nd Altitude band

I have to confess I dont actually know what that means - I only have ever had two other games where HL sweeps were the norm as its normally something my opponents and I avoid (most of my opponents are in the quasi historical camp simulators rather than gamers) in all of the 30+ PBEM's I have played I don't think I have ever seen a sweep above 20k by anyone other than one of my current games and my shortlived game v Nemo and in my current game we have a simple no sweeps above 25k limit that is easy to manage.

What does this HR actually mean - I agreed to it and will honour it but feeling a bit thick because I am unclear what I agreed to.

My opponent swept me at 30k feet and I responded by setting my Hurricanes to max altitude and retaliated even though I think its stupid to have them operating at 25k feet never mind 34k - so I know I broke the HR (unintentionally) I want to abide with it but I dont know what it is.

Help need to understand what it is ?

[Runnersan]

You got ingame info about Maneuver. This maneuverability is broken down into intervals by altitude. Two best means that max altitude that this plane can go is the second heighest maneuver number.

Something like on my screenshot below.

[Runnersan]

Better screenshot

Max altitude for oscar is band with second best Maneuver rating - 15K




For Hurricane it will be 20k

[Andy Mac]

Thanks oh bugger thats micro hell

[Oddball67]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Thanks oh bugger thats micro hell

i think too, i've seen some AAR where the HR is something like "no more than 20k in 42, 25k in 43" and so on, which seems way easier to use

[pontiouspilot]

Here is my take on this. If you check the specs for a Hurricane 1 you will see a list of altitudes at bottom of specs. For Hurricane 1 the 2nd highest band is 21K-31K with a concomitant maneuver of 18. You will note that the different altitude bands often have differing maneuver factors associated therewith. I have always taken this house rule to mean the Hurricane 1 wouldn't operate above the highest altitude of that 2nd band ie. 31K.

I will be fascinated to hear whether I have been misinterpreting this HR. You will get some heated debate on the use and effectiveness of this as a HR. I will say it's a pain in arse!!

**while drafting my response I already see other answers

[Runnersan]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Thanks oh bugger thats micro hell

You are right. I use:

Max fighter altitude 20K in 41-42, 25K in 43, 35K onwards

It's better for Japanese player because second best for P-38 is 31K, and this plane is real killer for single Japnese fighter squadron. And it is easier to remember and manage.

[Andy Mac]

OK well thanks I think I understand I suspect I will break the HR via incompetence as its too micro intensive but its what I agreed to so I guess I have to live with it

[Ambassador]

Useless rule IMVHO, there are ways to limit the effectiveness of very high altitude sweeps.

[Oddball67]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Useless rule IMVHO, there are ways to limit the effectiveness of very high altitude sweeps.

i have staged CAP in mind, anything else ?

[Runnersan]

ORIGINAL: Oddball67

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Useless rule IMVHO, there are ways to limit the effectiveness of very high altitude sweeps.

i have staged CAP in mind, anything else ?

I know only this one. And it is very hard to use when You have single detachment in base.

Superiority in numbers is very helpful, but you also have to send more then one unit to defend base to gain this.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: runnersan

ORIGINAL: Oddball67

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Useless rule IMVHO, there are ways to limit the effectiveness of very high altitude sweeps.

i have staged CAP in mind, anything else ?

I know only this one. And it is very hard to use when You have single detachment in base.

Superiority in numbers is very helpful, but you also have to send more then one unit to defend base to gain this.

A base worth having a CAP is worth having multiple squadrons on CAP.

A multi-layered CAP is indeed the best tool.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: runnersan

ORIGINAL: Oddball67




i have staged CAP in mind, anything else ?

I know only this one. And it is very hard to use when You have single detachment in base.

Superiority in numbers is very helpful, but you also have to send more then one unit to defend base to gain this.

A base worth having a CAP is worth having multiple squadrons on CAP.

A multi-layered CAP is indeed the best tool.

To be pedantic, no CAP is perhaps the best tool.

A lone sweep in itself, regardless of altitude, against a base with no CAP does precisely nothing.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: runnersan




I know only this one. And it is very hard to use when You have single detachment in base.

Superiority in numbers is very helpful, but you also have to send more then one unit to defend base to gain this.

A base worth having a CAP is worth having multiple squadrons on CAP.

A multi-layered CAP is indeed the best tool.

To be pedantic, no CAP is perhaps the best tool.

A lone sweep in itself, regardless of altitude, against a base with no CAP does precisely nothing.

Not entirely false, if the goal is to avoid losses. But the goal of a sweep is to clean the airspace, whether by shooting down the opposition or making it hide away, and thus paving the way for a bombardment. No CAP is thus conceding the battlefield. So, YMMV depending on your goal and situation.

But a well timed low-flying CAP trap, followed by a quick naval bombardment (or aerial) on the following night on their home base (provided it’s identified and they have no railway to evacuate) will bag a lot of aircrafts, and make the opponent think twice. I learned this the hard way with a bunch of P-38’s...

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Oddball67

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Thanks oh bugger thats micro hell

i think too, i've seen some AAR where the HR is something like "no more than 20k in 42, 25k in 43" and so on, which seems way easier to use

See if your opponent would go for something like this, so much easier to manage. I could never agree to what's been set up. Truly, micro hell.

[witpqs]

I am no such house rule. The altitudes for sweeps are, in effect, a metaphor anyway.

At some stages of the game and situations, one players does better with sweeps. at other stages and in other situations, the other player does better. In all cases where it is possible, layered CAP helps a great deal.

[Nomad]

I agree with the no house rule for sweep altitude. As stated, sometimes the Allies have the upper hand, other times Japan does. There are also counters, low CAP, low layered CAP, and just layered CAP can all work. You just need
to work at it. A bit like they had to in RL.

[Chris21wen]

Just scrap the HR.

[Q-Ball]

As Japan, I find the ideal altitude layers are lower, 7K,9K,12K for example. And I usually put cannon fodder at the bottom (like Oscar), and killers in the next two layers (Frank or George or Tojo, depending on date). Is that what other's do?

As Allies, though, I am not sure what's best. Same type of setup? Allied planes are generally not as good at low altitudes, but maybe in WITP-AE a lower-layered CAP is still preferable? It's also complicated by nationality (I.E., maybe the RAF has a different plan than USAAF or USMC)

[ITAKLinus]

Sadly, I play with this HR in my current PBEM.

I hate it.

Also, I do believe it makes very little difference. The Japanese player stays low. I sweep high. It doesn't really matter if I sweep at 550.000.000ft or 20.000ft since he's lower in any case.


I am sweeping at 42.000ft with P-47D25 (only TRACOM pilots in them, btw) and I obtain a 2:1 on very lucky days against A6M8/OSCAR-IV/FRANK-R.



Take the entire "altitude thing" as something symbolic. I know as well that they didn't fight at 40.000ft, but just read it as "those guys were higher than the other ones" and that's it.


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ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

As Japan, I find the ideal altitude layers are lower, 7K,9K,12K for example. And I usually put cannon fodder at the bottom (like Oscar), and killers in the next two layers (Frank or George or Tojo, depending on date). Is that what other's do?

As Allies, though, I am not sure what's best. Same type of setup? Allied planes are generally not as good at low altitudes, but maybe in WITP-AE a lower-layered CAP is still preferable? It's also complicated by nationality (I.E., maybe the RAF has a different plan than USAAF or USMC)

Someone who knows better than me the in-and-outs of the game will chime in, hopefully.

Still. Tojo in the upper layer is a no-go because it has a great climb rate.

I prefer (and my opponent masterfully does as well) to employ the best climbers and most agile fighters at the bottom (say 6k), then a layer of your second-best fighter (say the final George) and on top of that at 9k the layer with your best pilots and planes (generally, Frank-Rs).


As allied you have different setups. I found very tricky the low CAP provided by Spitfire VIIIs and Spitfire Vs. They operate in the same manner as the Japanese against strato-P47, just, they do it against Frank-Rs [:D][:D]
The Spits have a good speed and an outstanding MVR at low altitudes, creating big issues for the strato-Franks.

It also depends of what's the reason behind the sweep. If it's just to kill some enemy planes, I prefer to keep a very high CAP with american airframes. Under this HR, the Hellcats can go very high (higher than Franks) and you have plentiful. P-47s are a no-brainer, but using them in high altitude CAPs is quite a waste in my opininon.

P40s and P39s do quite well low. Surprisingly well, I would say. I can trade blow against strato-Franks without issues with worse pilots on my side. It goes maybe 1.5 : 1 for the Japanese.




Hope it helped!