Eliminating Montenegro on turn 2

[Chernobyl]

So this picture is the situation in Serbia on the Central Powers' second turn of the game. The Entente has had a chance to reinforce the Cetinje garrison to strength 10 (this is more effective on defense than entrenching). There is no corps which can make it to Cetinje so this is the best possible defense. All total there are six units which can attack Cetinje: two German corps, two Austrian corps, one Austrian cavalry and one German detachment.

And this is enough to give the Central Powers a 100%* success rate in destroying the Cetinje detachment. Montenegro surrenders. In order to accomplish this, the Germans had to rail down two corps and a detachment, the Austrians sent a cavalry and an extra infantry corps down there. The Austrians still have enough troops to attack Serbian positions defending the Pec-Nish line.

*I haven't failed in this attack in my playtesting (15+ tries) EXCEPT if I save the game after a bunch of really bad attack rolls. And even then it still usually works. I do pay to upgrade the Austrian general and if your initial attacks are poor you could in theory rail in a German HQ for one turn just to give a boost for a complete guarantee (you can actually rail the HQ in and assign it to units on the same turn)


Here are the pros and cons:

PROS:
-Centrals plunder like 30-40 MPP
-Immediate income increase from a nice capital city which eventually gives 20 base mpp
-Serbia loses its two largest sources of income immediately (French supply and Cetinje city)
-Serbia takes NM losses enough to knock them down one level of unit morale (sub 95%)
-Montenegro loses their detachment and probably the other detachment too (could possibly run away with the second detachment but that has downsides**)
-Montenegro never spawns its Sanjak corps and never spawns a HQ
-Nice supply route open for Austria to use to push into the Serbian mountains later
-Because this severely weakens Serbian strength so quickly (one turn kill that eliminates 3-4 units), you have the option to rail out the units you sent down sooner than other strategies which take longer to develop
-You gain quick access to a nifty port which helps you control the Adriatic better

CONS:
-Albania never joins. You miss out on about 12MPP per turn from annexing Albania and conquering Serbia is slightly more difficult due to not being able to use Albanian hexes to maneuver
-You have to sell tech to rail in 2 corps and a detachment.
-These units could be useful in France or in Russia immediately. You have to pay to rail them there and then pay to rail them out, also repair these units too.

** If you allow Cetinje to be surrounded completely from all three sides, attacks against the city get some sort of bonus and it falls more quickly. This is not due to supply but caused by some kind of surround defense factor which seems to eliminate the city hex bonus when there are three enemy units next to it.

What do you guys think? Is this crazy overpowered or do you think it's fine?

[stockwellpete]

I didn't realise until I just looked it up that in real life the Montenegrin army fought with the Serbs in Serbia against the Austro-Hungarians in 1914 and 1915. Only when the Serbs were defeated did they retreat to their own country to continue the fight and they were overwhelmed in 1916. On that basis the very quick defeat of the Montenegrins seems unrealistic, but quite how you would make that a lot harder to achieve is difficult to see. I don't think there were any military fortifications protecting the town. I wonder why the Austro-Hungarians didn't attack there in 1914?

[mdsmall]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

What do you guys think? Is this crazy overpowered or do you think it's fine?

I think it is crazy overpowered. Serbia is hard enough for the Entente to defend without being able to knock out Montenegro on turn 2. I my last MP game, I lost it on Turn 3 and experienced the consequences (notably the immediate disappearance of all of the other Montenegrin units).

Someone recently made the suggestion to give Serbia 25 MPPs at the start of the game. That would give them enough resources to operate the Serbian corps that starts in Uskub to Cetinje on the first turn. Of course, that corps is needed to defend the main defence line behind Belgrade. But I think it would help Cetinje hold out longer. Have you tried game-testing what difference that would make?

[Chernobyl]

Oh damn you're right what am I thinking, they can pay to OPERATE that corps in. Well that changes everything!

Well quick update I was able to still kill Serbian corps on the second turn like normal, but ONLY by railing in a German HQ. I will do some testing to see how consistent this is....

[mdsmall]

In fact, as it stands, the Serbs can withdraw the chit they have invested in Industrial Tech and get enough MPPs to operate that corps in. It's painful for the Serbs, but by the time they reach Industry Tech 1, they have either survived or succumbed to the initial 1914-15 onslaught.

[Chernobyl]

Yes the Serbs definitely need to sell tech in any case.

[Chernobyl]

Okay so preliminary testing seems to feel like it's even easier to destroy the Serb corps in Cetinje than the detachment, given that you pay to rail over the German HQ (can even be Hindenberg if you are sadistic).

Analysis: This may temporarily leave the German forces weaker in East Prussia or Poland, but considering that Serbia doubled down on the defense of Montenegro (they desperately need that corps they just lost) I think it's probably worth it. Serbia losing Montenegro AND their best corps on turn 2 is brutal.

[Dazo]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Okay so preliminary testing seems to feel like it's even easier to destroy the Serb corps in Cetinje than the detachment, given that you pay to rail over the German HQ (can even be Hindenberg if you are sadistic).

Analysis: This may temporarily leave the German forces weaker in East Prussia or Poland, but considering that Serbia doubled down on the defense of Montenegro (they desperately need that corps they just lost) I think it's probably worth it. Serbia losing Montenegro AND their best corps on turn 2 is brutal.

Yep, told you that in our practice, didn't see the point to operate the 10 steps corps in as you'll lose those 3 levels of capital ground cover the MTN detachment has.

If I remember well, AH didn't attack there early on because terrain was difficult and they had other priorities (Belgrade/Russia) so they didn't want to send so many men there to take what was considered as a dead end. Quick victory over Serbia was supposed to mean the fall of MTN soon after.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

This Montenegrin Gambit by the Central Powers just adds even more to Serbia's agonizing choices at the beginning of the war, especially if Belgrade falls on turn 1 or 2.

While it isn't necessary to sell the basically useless Industrial chit to operate the Serb corp in Uskub...it is to get that 50 MMP's to repair units or add reinforcements. Even if Cetinje doesn't fall rapidly because of a Serb unit operated to that town..a blockade and siege will guarantee that convoy route from France will go down soon enough.

And this is the other dilemma for Serbia if they operate that corp to Cetinje. They will be hard put to stop the Austro-Hungarians to advance to the environs of Nish. Nish doesn't even have to be taken immediately though it is favorable. They just need to siege it...and the convoy line from Russia is down.

Both convoy routes down...little if any money for Serbia. They are kaput. The Entente simply has an almost impossible task to save Serbia if the Montenegrin Gambit is employed. Of course, for Germany, (and AH if they do the same research chit sell-off like was done here), there is some short term sacrifice with research re-buys to achieve this and other operational 1st turn moves...but Serbia is the Prize for the Central Powers early, and by mid 1915 if not earlier, before Greece gets in.

A brilliant stratagem that caused great consternation when it was employed against me.

[Tanaka]

Brilliant! Another Gambit! [:D]

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Brilliant! Another Gambit! [:D]

Ahhh yes, Grasshopper.....There are books full of Gambits.

[Tendraline]

The point about Albania is pretty moot, as you could always declare war on it later with better preparation. If you could destroy Montenegro within two turns, unless the situation on another front is really pressing, you could probably destroy Albania in two more turns. As a result, I can only imagine that the Allied situation in the Balkans gets unbelievably dire. Plus 11 less MPPs for Russia either way.

On the other hand, I'm confused when you say that the city's "hex bonus" disappears if you surround it on all three hexes. The defense bonus seems to be constant, and the level of entrenchment also. Supply clearly plays a role here, as the rail line gets cut and the city's (and the port's) supply values drop from 10 to 5. As a result, the readiness and morale of the Cetinje detachment plummets and the corps surrounding the city get favorable exchanges all of a sudden.

[stockwellpete]

Is there a case for making Cetinje a mountain hex rather than a hill hex? It is borderline but would that help with its defence a bit? You have Mount Lovcen nearby, which is over 5,000 feet . . .

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/files/styles/ ... k=A8fvGfPj
https://www.britannica.com/place/Montenegro#ref242880

[mdsmall]

ORIGINAL: Tendraline

The point about Albania is pretty moot, as you could always declare war on it later with better preparation. If you could destroy Montenegro within two turns, unless the situation on another front is really pressing, you could probably destroy Albania in two more turns. As a result, I can only imagine that the Allied situation in the Balkans gets unbelievably dire. Plus 11 less MPPs for Russia either way.

The game has some strong built-in incentives to deter the Central Powers from declaring war on Albania, if it remains neutral (which it will if Montenegro surrenders before the Albanian civil war script fires on September 10, 1914). Bulgaria will swing 10-20% towards the Entente and Greece, the Ottoman Empire and Italy will all swing 10-25% towards the Entente. As tempting as it is to attack southern Serbia through Albania, most CP players will find that too high a penalty to pay in 1914.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Stockwellpete,

It's the same deal as Trento and other towns sited on hills or mountains. You don't get the terrain bonus on a town resource hex.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: mdsmall


The game has some strong built-in incentives to deter the Central Powers from declaring war on Albania, if it remains neutral (which it will if Montenegro surrenders before the Albanian civil war script fires on September 10, 1914). Bulgaria will swing 10-20% towards the Entente and Greece, the Ottoman Empire and Italy will all swing 10-25% towards the Entente. As tempting as it is to attack southern Serbia through Albania, most CP players will find that too high a penalty to pay in 1914.

Yeah...its best to just wait on conquering Montenegro until Albania joins the Entente. The Central Powers won't have to wait long for that. [:)]

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: Tendraline
On the other hand, I'm confused when you say that the city's "hex bonus" disappears if you surround it on all three hexes.

Try it for yourself. Place a unit on 2 sides of the city and look at your attack predictor. Then surround the city from 3 sides and look at your attack predictor. You IMMEDIATELY get a better attack (no need to wait a turn for supply effects to happen). The defender seems to not be getting any defensive bonus from the city, but ONLY if it's completely surrounded WITH a unit in each surrounding hex. I don't completely understand it but I think there is something built into the game that makes defense weaker if you are cut off?

Again to be clear this is NOT supply. That's an additional effect that happens later to the defender.

[Bavre]

Fascinating stuff guys!

A few observations from me:

Operating in the Serbian Corps doesn't seem to be a good idea. It goes down just as easily, is urgently needed elsewhere and all Montenegrin units disband after surrender, even outside Montenegro! (Bug or feature?) That means CP kills 3 units for the price of one.

I can also confirm the effect Chernobyl described. Did a test in Belgrade. To trigger you need to occupy all eligible surrounding hexes, just cutting the city off is not enough. So in case of Belgrade you will see the (+2DB) effect on the defenders side vanish only after you put the sixth unit into the ring.

And while we are at gambitting, how about doubling down and using the early kill of Serbia to go after Greece? Pisses of USA and Bulgaria (historically kind of weird, so only do it after Bulgaria joins), but has its advantages: With good unit placement (Cav in the southeast corner of Serbia) you can overrun both the Saloniki and Larissa spawn areas and forcemarch your troops to the doorstep of Athens. Quickly gaining the greek harbors also makes not having the albanian one much less of an issue.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Bavre

Fascinating stuff guys!

A few observations from me:

Operating in the Serbian Corps doesn't seem to be a good idea. It goes down just as easily, is urgently needed elsewhere and all Montenegrin units disband after surrender, even outside Montenegro! (Bug or feature?) That means CP kills 3 units for the price of one.

I can also confirm the effect Chernobyl described. Did a test in Belgrade. To trigger you need to occupy all eligible surrounding hexes, just cutting the city off is not enough. So in case of Belgrade you will see the (+2DB) effect on the defenders side vanish only after you put the sixth unit into the ring.

And while we are at gambitting, how about doubling down and using the early kill of Serbia to go after Greece? Pisses of USA and Bulgaria (historically kind of weird, so only do it after Bulgaria joins), but has its advantages: With good unit placement (Cav in the southeast corner of Serbia) you can overrun both the Saloniki and Larissa spawn areas and forcemarch your troops to the doorstep of Athens. Quickly gaining the greek harbors also makes not having the albanian one much less of an issue.

Alas! I suffered the Greek Gambit also from a regular and crafty opponent (I've mention him before and he can claim his prize if he wants haha)...right after Bulgaria got in and Serbia fell..Greece entered the war..I had UK and French units as a scratch force ready to be transported into Greece's ports.

Well, they did..spread over Greece like butter spread thin on toast...which is exactly what happened to my Entente scratch force...Toast. Supply was terrible, the roads were bad, and the rough terrain, while beneficial, also slowed my up my deployments. Bulgarian artillery and CP cavalry messed up each successive defense line I put up.

When Kalamata in the Peloponnese fell, all I had left for Greece was Mudros, Crete, and Corfu...Corfu which fell later on. Rough times were at hand for the Entente....
Remember it all, vividly.

[shri]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

ORIGINAL: Bavre

Fascinating stuff guys!

A few observations from me:

Operating in the Serbian Corps doesn't seem to be a good idea. It goes down just as easily, is urgently needed elsewhere and all Montenegrin units disband after surrender, even outside Montenegro! (Bug or feature?) That means CP kills 3 units for the price of one.

I can also confirm the effect Chernobyl described. Did a test in Belgrade. To trigger you need to occupy all eligible surrounding hexes, just cutting the city off is not enough. So in case of Belgrade you will see the (+2DB) effect on the defenders side vanish only after you put the sixth unit into the ring.

And while we are at gambitting, how about doubling down and using the early kill of Serbia to go after Greece? Pisses of USA and Bulgaria (historically kind of weird, so only do it after Bulgaria joins), but has its advantages: With good unit placement (Cav in the southeast corner of Serbia) you can overrun both the Saloniki and Larissa spawn areas and forcemarch your troops to the doorstep of Athens. Quickly gaining the greek harbors also makes not having the albanian one much less of an issue.

Alas! I suffered the Greek Gambit also from a regular and crafty opponent (I've mention him before and he can claim his prize if he wants haha)...right after Bulgaria got in and Serbia fell..Greece entered the war..I had UK and French units as a scratch force ready to be transported into Greece's ports.

Well, they did..spread over Greece like butter spread thin on toast...which is exactly what happened to my Entente scratch force...Toast. Supply was terrible, the roads were bad, and the rough terrain, while beneficial, also slowed my up my deployments. Bulgarian artillery and CP cavalry messed up each successive defense line I put up.

When Kalamata in the Peloponnese fell, all I had left for Greece was Mudros, Crete, and Corfu...Corfu which fell later on. Rough times were at hand for the Entente....
Remember it all, vividly.

I can already guess that crafty opponent. [:D]