Alternate capitals and convoys

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Wanted to test a proposed fix to strengthen Montenegro from the Montenegro Gambit. We were discussing making Pec an alternative capital if Cetinje falls and having the French-Serb convoy rerouted to Tirana, Albania...and then to Salonica if Tirana falls.

We were going to add the Monte Hq onto Pec...and that I know how to do.
I also understand how to change terrain tiles and such..but never got further than that.

Any advise on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated [:)]

[stockwellpete]

If the idea of changing one of the mountain hexes next to Cetinje to a "high mountain" hex is ruled out, the other possibility is to upgrade the hill hex to the north west of Cetinje to a mountain hex. That may help a little bit in reducing the number of attacks possible on Cetinje in one turn.

The other "physical constraints" issue that I am wondering about is the railway line between Ragusa and Cetinje. There was one there in 1914, but what sort of line was it? Single track and unable to cope with large troop movements perhaps? What if that railway line was removed from the map?

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I've tested putting a high mountain in that hex north of Cetinje..its not sufficient...so I was going to try Chernobyl's (and others) suggested fix and set Pec as an alternate capital for Montenegro and amend the convoy script to change once Cetinje falls to Tirana...and later to Salonika.

The railroad could be removed, I quess..I will check on AH railroads for that area..if it's a single line there maybe a good rational to eliminate a segment. That maybe the simplest fix of all. I will check it out. [:)]

Still..was hoping to be steered in the right direction on how to the Pec and convoy changes in the editor.

[mdsmall]

Hi - I have been trying to learn how to use the Editor in the past day for exactly the same reason, so I will be interested to read what you come up with. It would be great if more experienced players could share their how-to-mod tips here.

I found you can easily create an Alternate Capital for Montenegro by opening the Country Data tab for Montenegro in the Editor. You will see that there are boxes to add Capitals and Primary Supply and Industrial Centers for any country. Just add Pec to the list of capitals for Montenegro.

As for designing a new convoy, I studied the Convoy scripts under Decision Events in the Editor yesterday. I think the way to do this is to first write a new Decision Event to start the convoy which would trigger when Montenegro has surrendered and Albania has joined the Entente. Then you can write a new Convoy script linked to that DE specifying Tirana as the Destination Port. This Convoy script could be modelled on the existing script for the France to Serbia convoy.

Given the absence of any railroads in Albania, plus its notorious terrain and general reputation for banditry, it would be reasonable to make a convoy through Albania less efficient than one through Montenegro. One way to do that would be simply to give it a lower maximum, say 5% of France's MPP production, rather than 10%. Another way would be to introduce a random element using Global Variables, so it only operates say, 70% of the time. Or perhaps it does not operate in Winter. Anyhow, the Convoy scripts give you some interesting variables to play with.

(Writing this it occurs to me to ask: would the existing convoy still operate if the CP cut the railroad from Cetinje through Pec to Serbia before Cetinje fell? I think it probably would. This seems implausible, but to prevent that the existing convoy script would need to also specify that the hexes between Centinje and Pec are also Entente controlled. The devs have recently added a check along these lines for the Murmansk convoy in War in Europe, so that it does not fire if the Axis cuts the rail-line running south from Murmansk. That could be a model for a further mod to the existing convoy script).

You could use the same approach to write a new Convoy script through Greece if Tirana is captured. I agree with you that Salonika makes the most sense as the destination port, given its rail line to Serbia. This raises the interesting question what if the Entente needs to open this convoy before Greece fully mobilizes for the Entente (which normally only happens in September 1915)? You could set the trigger conditions for a lower level of alignment for Greece which could oblige the Entente to spend diplomacy to raise Greece's alignment (though the cost of the chits to do this would probably exceed the total value of the MPPs you would send to Serbia for many months). Another approach would be to write a new "Greek Civil War" DE that creates an incentive for the UK to DOW Greece in the hope that General Venezilos will side with the Entente and bring Salonika into the war with a couple of rebel Greek units that would be controlled by the UK. This might also give an additional use for that British marine unit sitting on Lemnos.

All interesting ideas to play with!

[stockwellpete]

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

(Writing this it occurs to me to ask: would the existing convoy still operate if the CP cut the railroad from Cetinje through Pec to Serbia before Cetinje fell? I think it probably would. This seems implausible, but to prevent that the existing convoy script would need to also specify that the hexes between Centinje and Pec are also Entente controlled. The devs have recently added a check along these lines for the Murmansk convoy in War in Europe, so that it does not fire if the Axis cuts the rail-line running south from Murmansk. That could be a model for a further mod to the existing convoy script).

If you look at the map in this link it does not have a railway line between Cetinje and Pec. I am not sure exactly what date the map represents (maybe it is a bit after WW1?). I cannot actually tell by looking at the game whether it does have one between the two cities now or not. I think my eyesight is deteriorating!

https://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.co ... urope.html

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Thanks Pete...I have a 1912 map also...will post later tonight. It shows a single tertiary branch running from Sarajevo through to the coast. Its not a primary or secondary line. Can't see how moving 100,000 troops from Germany would manage that trip on a windy assed single rail line in one game turn. lol

Also thanks mdsmall..I figured out the Alternative Capital edit because of your post .

Bavre mssg me that he and others are working on solutions to this problem...which we all realize is a big deal the Dev's need to hear about...which they will no doubt when Entente players start screaming from MP matches, or worse, the tournament. [X(]

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Bavre mssg me that he and others are working on solutions to this problem...which we all realize is a big deal the Dev's need to hear about...which they will no doubt when Entente players start screaming from MP matches, or worse, the tournament. [X(]

Hopefully we'll have a few more changes in place by the time the tournament gets round to the 1914 campaign. [:)]

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Hi - I have been trying to learn how to use the Editor in the past day for exactly the same reason, so I will be interested to read what you come up with. It would be great if more experienced players could share their how-to-mod tips here.

I found you can easily create an Alternate Capital for Montenegro by opening the Country Data tab for Montenegro in the Editor. You will see that there are boxes to add Capitals and Primary Supply and Industrial Centers for any country. Just add Pec to the list of capitals for Montenegro.

As for designing a new convoy, I studied the Convoy scripts under Decision Events in the Editor yesterday. I think the way to do this is to first write a new Decision Event to start the convoy which would trigger when Montenegro has surrendered and Albania has joined the Entente. Then you can write a new Convoy script linked to that DE specifying Tirana as the Destination Port. This Convoy script could be modelled on the existing script for the France to Serbia convoy.

Given the absence of any railroads in Albania, plus its notorious terrain and general reputation for banditry, it would be reasonable to make a convoy through Albania less efficient than one through Montenegro. One way to do that would be simply to give it a lower maximum, say 5% of France's MPP production, rather than 10%. Another way would be to introduce a random element using Global Variables, so it only operates say, 70% of the time. Or perhaps it does not operate in Winter. Anyhow, the Convoy scripts give you some interesting variables to play with.

(Writing this it occurs to me to ask: would the existing convoy still operate if the CP cut the railroad from Cetinje through Pec to Serbia before Cetinje fell? I think it probably would. This seems implausible, but to prevent that the existing convoy script would need to also specify that the hexes between Centinje and Pec are also Entente controlled. The devs have recently added a check along these lines for the Murmansk convoy in War in Europe, so that it does not fire if the Axis cuts the rail-line running south from Murmansk. That could be a model for a further mod to the existing convoy script).

You could use the same approach to write a new Convoy script through Greece if Tirana is captured. I agree with you that Salonika makes the most sense as the destination port, given its rail line to Serbia. This raises the interesting question what if the Entente needs to open this convoy before Greece fully mobilizes for the Entente (which normally only happens in September 1915)? You could set the trigger conditions for a lower level of alignment for Greece which could oblige the Entente to spend diplomacy to raise Greece's alignment (though the cost of the chits to do this would probably exceed the total value of the MPPs you would send to Serbia for many months). Another approach would be to write a new "Greek Civil War" DE that creates an incentive for the UK to DOW Greece in the hope that General Venezilos will side with the Entente and bring Salonika into the war with a couple of rebel Greek units that would be controlled by the UK. This might also give an additional use for that British marine unit sitting on Lemnos.

All interesting ideas to play with!

Indeed, and just to add that for the alternative convoys to Serbia to work the Port the convoy travels to will have to be transferred to Serbia via a Territory script.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Austro-Hungarian Railway Network 1912. The railway from Sarajevo to the Adriatic is a single track 'branch".

There is a 'Regular' line segment on the coast that is short..the single track branch connects it to the main network is AH. The question is could this 'branch' rail handle huge military traffic as featured as operational movement in SC-WW1?

Also..this single line transits Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was Ottoman until annexed in 1908...so this could be an old Turkish railway. No matter really...it is a single line mentioned from other sources I have to find again.

btw stockwellpete...I put this up on the Montenegro Gambit thread...this was your idea but I needed to find evidence and decided it needs exposure for feed back. I'm going to the editor and see what I can do there for a test.

[stockwellpete]

I am beginning to wonder if we need a new thread in the main forum to look at how railways are represented in the game. It seems at the moment that you can "teleport" your units all over the map without much, if any, restriction at all. This doesn't feel quite right to me and in my own games against the AI I have introduced my own "house-rule" where operational movement has to begin and end on a railway line.

The first idea that has come to me is that each country should have its own "railway rating" between 0 and 3 to represent the railway infrastructure. So Germany, Belgium, France, UK for example would be rated 3, Russia and Austria-Hungary might be rated 2, whereas Italy, Serbia and the Ottoman Empire might be rated 1. Albania would be rated zero and have no railway lines. And this "railway rating" would be linked to the number of operational movements allowed in any one turn. I haven't thought this through in any great detail but you can see where I am going with it. You could say that countries with a "3" rating have unlimited capacity for operational movement, for example. Whether something like this is moddable, in the first instance, I am not sure.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

I just founded out the rail line from Sarajevo to the Adriatic is a narrow gauge railway. The short line that goes along the coast also is.

I have images and data of the trains themselves (they are small)..the gradients and other information. Those rail lines are not even like the main trunks. On top of that...I have contemporaneous accounts of the these railroads at the time...with the words "steep', 'torturous','curvy', 'slow', and the like.

There is even a name for this unique gauge, and it's called 'Bosnian Gauge'.
I have every thing and I will post it this weekend here. I may just rename the forum since there are so many ideas to fix this thing.

My conclusion is that those 2 short rail lines don't belong on the SC-WW1 map. There isn't even the right rolling stock on those lines to handle large formations of troops!

[shri]

Guys if we think the Austrian Railways were bad, then the massive Cavalry attacks possible into Silesia and Posen by Russia are impossible as the Railways ended at Lodz and Minsk-Lodz via Warsaw was a single line of dubious quality built post 1905 with great haste thanks to French loans, further the lines outside the fortress towards German border from Congress Poland were totally non existent, purposely done to stop a quick German attack, it also proved lethal to the Russian armies attacking into East Prussia in 1914 (they managed to lose several armies).
TLDR- Monkey balancing needs to be done for either side.

[Chernobyl]

You could probably make all the same arguments against many other rail lines on the map. For example the Damascus to Medina track was only narrow gauge. Should it be deleted? The rails on the map are obviously heavily influenced by gameplay/balance considerations. So I wouldn't say it's out of the question to change the map, but I don't think all poor quality rail lines should be deleted.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

You could probably make all the same arguments against many other rail lines on the map. For example the Damascus to Medina track was only narrow gauge. Should it be deleted? The rails on the map are obviously heavily influenced by gameplay/balance considerations. So I wouldn't say it's out of the question to change the map, but I don't think all poor quality rail lines should be deleted.

Well..ok I am not advocating all of them..just the ones in Bosnia. Something needs doing because as it stands atm the game is flawed by the M-Gambit. All the last fixes were great but heavily favor the CP. I advocated many of these because they were needed.

I think they used the WiE map for a lot of this. There is a precedence to changing the infrastructure in this game though after player suggestions:

1) They finally linked Kars to the rest of the Turkish Rail Net in WaW and WiE
2) They added the Kolyma Highway (Highway of Bones) from Magadan to Yakutsk in WaW

Shouldn't be a problem to eliminate a single line narrow gauge railway that goes through Bosnia from Sarajevo to the Adriatic coast.If we don't go for amending a simple RR fix....then the Pec second capital idea plus an HQ is a better than nothing.

I'm not doing another MP with either side except for tests till something is done.

[mdsmall]

Hi - I was testing out some ideas on this topic this morning using the Editor and found that if I made Cetinje a fortified town, using the Resource Layer under the Map tab in the Editor, I would get an error message when I went to save the mod, saying that Montenegro needed a Capital. This happened, even though the map still showed Centinje as the Capital. Any idea what caused this error and if there is a work around which would allow me to keep it as the Montenegrin capital while making a fortified town?

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Hi - I was testing out some ideas on this topic this morning using the Editor and found that if I made Cetinje a fortified town, using the Resource Layer under the Map tab in the Editor, I would get an error message when I went to save the mod, saying that Montenegro needed a Capital. This happened, even though the map still showed Centinje as the Capital. Any idea what caused this error and if there is a work around which would allow me to keep it as the Montenegrin capital while making a fortified town?

Yeah..I had the same problem weeks ago..and moved on. Now, I started warming up back to making Cetinje a Fortress again like Trento. Its the same situation..small but extensive forts and redoubts through out the entire area, (some going back to the middle ages)..the rugged mountain terrain, the fjord like Kotor Bay and the like as an abstraction of a fortress tile.

There must be a way to make Ceninje a capital and a fort...I can't figure it out...unless it isn't possible.

[BillRunacre]

All countries on the map need to have either a Capital or a Major Capital resource sprite, so the absence of either in this instance is why the Editor is displaying an error message.

That it still shows as the Capital would only change once the campaign successfully saved, which in this instance it is unable to do.

A work around would be to make Pec the Capital, and then change Cetinje to be a Fortified Town.

[mdsmall]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

A work around would be to make Pec the Capital, and then change Cetinje to be a Fortified Town.

Hi Bill - I just tried that in the Editor but it would not allow me to delete Cetinje as a Capital, even after I had added Pec as a Capital. And as you noted above, if you try to change Cetinje to a fortified town, it won't accept that change, as it appears that the initial capital for any country has to be a City.

Is there another work around or a different way of using the Editor to increase the defensive capacity of Cetinje?

[BillRunacre]

The best thing would be to perhaps move the resource at Cetinje to where Pec is, having first moved or deleted the resource at Pec.

Then Cetinje can be made a fortified town.

[BillRunacre]

Note that you can only change the capital in the Editor by placing, moving, or removing, the Capital or Major Resource type from the map.

It cannot be done via the Campaigns -> Edit Country Data page (though alternative capitals are set there).