WIP - Intermittent Emission

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Geoffropi
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WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by Geoffropi »

Hello everyone,

We are currently developing a new feature for radars, to allow them to be able to have unpredictable intermittent emission.

-You can set intermittent emission for each individual unit, it only affects active radars.
-Each configuration set is linked to the side's DEFCON. The DEFCON defines which intermittent emission configuration set it will use.
-Guidance is affected too, but we are thinking of adding a switch to that too.


Image
Image

IN DETAILS :

"Intermittent mode" "Continuous Mode" toggle :
-> The master switch for the configs, whether or not the unit uses intermittent emission.

Emission Duration :
-> How long it will use active radar during the emission phase.

Interval :
-> How long the interval will last until going back to the emission phase.

Interval Random Variation :
-> The additional time the interval will last, giving unpredictability since it will be randomized at each cycle.

Wake when detecting threat toggle :
-> Defines if the radar that still detects anything else than friendly contacts will stay alert.

If the vicinity stays silent from any non-friendlies for the defined time in "Time before going back to sleep mode" textbox, it will go back to its normal intermittent business.

Looking forward to your suggestions
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KLAB
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by KLAB »

Is DEFCON state going to rigidly direct if you can go intermittent or not?

I can think of intelligence and asymmetric situations where you would want to be tempting the OPFOR with on off emissions when your at low DEFCON just to test the OPFOR response?

Plus will it be applicable to LIDAR?

This is however a brilliant development, the settings seem intuitive and self explanatory, will they be LUA'able?

Thanks again,

K
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Gunner98
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by Gunner98 »

Excellent stuff. Really a great development.

The choice of 'DEFCON' as a term is somewhat unfortunate as it has major linkages to global Cold War status. It is workable but could cause confusion.

I assume that all of these settings will be adjustable via Lua?

Will this be applied to other emitters or just radars? I'm thinking OECM, active sonars etc

A couple ideas that might be do-able or perhaps not:

It would be fantastic if this could work as a group control setting: i.e.:
--You have 5 area surveillance radars covering an area
--You group them and apply some form of this setting
--The 5 radars would act randomly but coordinated - so at least one would always be on and when that one randomly turned off, another in the group would pop on etc.

It would be great if the type of radar was selectable: i.e. if you have a ship (or group of ships) with multiple radars, this setting could be applied to all the area surveillance radars but no other emitter, perhaps just a certain type to try and mask the ship type, perhaps only the 3D radars etc.

Really looking forward to this - I suppose it will require us to go back and adjust old scenarios but that will be a great improvement.

Thank you!
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TitaniumTrout
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by TitaniumTrout »

I really like the concept.

Emission is the time it is actually ACTIVE?

Interval + Interval Random is the OFF time?

What is SLEEP mode in relation to those two?

In the above example the radar is ACTIVE for 30 seconds and off for some random time between 0 and 60 seconds?

How quickly can some of these large surveillance radars cycle on-and-off? It would be interesting to have a minimum interval depending on platform or era. I imagine a modern solid state radar could cycle much more quickly than a magnetron style emitter.

thewood1
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by thewood1 »

Even older radars have a warm standby mode with a sink to absorb the energy. They can be switched to active fairly quickly. If they are cold started, they can take a bit to get the tubes warmed up.
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SeaQueen
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by SeaQueen »

That's neat but that's not how that works. There isn't any random variation.

I'd define emission intervals and durations by minutes, not seconds. Otherwise you're going to end up getting some pretty big numbers in there. At sea, EMCON instructions might be stated as something like "10 of the last 15 minutes," or whatever.

It's also different for land based systems versus ships. On land there's a kill chain, where the EW/GCI radars hand tracks off to lower echelon radars which eventually hand them over to missile batteries themselves where the acquisition and tracking radars light up. Depending on what's going on, you might get no warning until the tracking radar lights up. Ground observers are still an important part of this process in many parts of the world as well.

Geoffropi
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by Geoffropi »

Thanks for the feedbacks.
ORIGINAL: KLAB

-Is DEFCON state going to rigidly direct if you can go intermittent or not?
-Plus will it be applicable to LIDAR?
-will they be LUA'able?

-For instance yes, but a custom tab is being made
-It applies to all active radars
-As soon as we are all satisfied with this feature it will be Lua binded
-The choice of 'DEFCON' as a term is somewhat unfortunate as it has major linkages to global Cold War status. It is workable but could cause confusion.
-I get that point, as a non-native speaker I tend to use odd vocabulary, especially in highly contextualized situations.
Feel free to suggest a more common term.
Will this be applied to other emitters or just radars? I'm thinking OECM, active sonars etc
-It includes anything that radiates EM . Excluding torchlights which are not implemented.
It would be fantastic if this could work as a group control setting: i.e.:
--You have 5 area surveillance radars covering an area
--You group them and apply some form of this setting
--The 5 radars would act randomly but coordinated - so at least one would always be on and when that one randomly turned off, another in the group would pop on etc.
-This is a possibility since group's sensory system can be managed/saved.
I suppose it will require us to go back and adjust old scenarios but that will be a great improvement.
-It is compatible with older saves/scenario
Emission is the time it is actually ACTIVE?
Interval + Interval Random is the OFF time?
What is SLEEP mode in relation to those two?
In the above example the radar is ACTIVE for 30 seconds and off for some random time between 0 and 60 seconds?
-yes
-yes
-No direct relation :
"Wake when detecting threat toggle :
-> Defines if the radar that still detects anything else than friendly contacts will stay alert.
If the vicinity stays silent from any non-friendlies for the defined time in "Time before going back to sleep mode" textbox, it will go back to its normal intermittent business.
"
How quickly can some of these large surveillance radars cycle on-and-off? It would be interesting to have a minimum interval depending on platform or era. I imagine a modern solid state radar could cycle much more quickly than a magnetron style emitter.
-Interesting, I bet OODA could do the job, that is not directly related to the intermittent behavior though.
That's neat but that's not how that works. There isn't any random variation.

I'd define emission intervals and durations by minutes, not seconds. Otherwise you're going to end up getting some pretty big numbers in there. At sea, EMCON instructions might be stated as something like "10 of the last 15 minutes," or whatever.

It's also different for land based systems versus ships. On land there's a kill chain, where the EW/GCI radars hand tracks off to lower echelon radars which eventually hand them over to missile batteries themselves where the acquisition and tracking radars light up. Depending on what's going on, you might get no warning until the tracking radar lights up. Ground observers are still an important part of this process in many parts of the world as well.

Thank you, that will give precious insights.
So there is definitively no (significant) precedent of tactic involving randomness in order to deceive the opponent?
Within the game simulation, I can see the benefit of such behaviour, so is it due to any technical limitations, lack of adaptation in real-life doctrine or simply practical ineffectiveness of such tactic?




Parel803
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by Parel803 »

Very nice idea.
Real life for ships I think (same as pthers) older radars can also be switch on pretty fast. There at sea in a standby mode as long as there not broken or in maintenance, as for TWT and Magnetron. We might use sector blanking to prevent counter detection, same for different modes like power settings.
When some radar go on you might wonder if they are building up for threat and that every time she switches on.
In real life you might be careful with switching between emitters cause once seen by the adversary give info away, so combinations between units might be used as confusion. But the one on stays on as guard.
Do like presets when situation changes. We use preset for different type of attacks. Based on ranges, types of missiles/torpedo's, etc.

with regards Gert-Jan




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Gunner98
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by Gunner98 »

quote:


-The choice of 'DEFCON' as a term is somewhat unfortunate as it has major linkages to global Cold War status. It is workable but could cause confusion.

-I get that point, as a non-native speaker I tend to use odd vocabulary, especially in highly contextualized situations.
Feel free to suggest a more common term.

I'm not really sure, perhaps one of the pros has an idea. I would suggest EMCON but I think you're already using that.
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c3k
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by c3k »

2nd the term EMCON.

And, EMCON was used in "Levels".

The higher the level, the tighter the control on emissions.


---
It seems like there's an assumption that this can be done for all emitters, especially radars. (Specifically radars?)

Is this true? Can/could all radars be turned on and off like this? In modern terms, the kill-chain may need the data. In older periods, were the waveform emitters reliable enough to be turned on and off and not disrupt the system?
boogabooga
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by boogabooga »

Will ALL of the radars on one side blink on and off together, or is it radar-by-radar?

I've never played Harpoon, but I have seen screenshots where intermittent was an EMCON setting, apparently. How was it handled back then, if so?
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SeaQueen
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by SeaQueen »

Here's something I'd find useful:

In a formation of warships, it'd sometimes be nice to have the option of disguising one's numbers and the types of warships by having a "no unique emissions," option, which would avoid turning on radars which were unique to that ship in the formation. For example in a CSG, it might make sense to turn on the CRUDES radars because there's a bunch of them, but it wouldn't make sense to turn on the CVN's radars because that would just highlight it to the enemy ES. While you can do this kind of thing manually, it gets tedious fast having to check each and every sensor periodically.
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SeaQueen
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by SeaQueen »

ORIGINAL: Gunner98
I'm not really sure, perhaps one of the pros has an idea. I would suggest EMCON but I think you're already using that.

EMCON is fine. DEFCON is just plain wrong. DEFCON is was about readiness for nuclear war and didn't have anything to do with emissions.

Btw, something I think is important to think about, before you go all in on this, is that all the capability to do EMCON the right way is already in LUA, so if you're not going to make something better than what is there already, I'd strongly suggest doing nothing at all because it just be creating problem that doesn't exist.
thewood1
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by thewood1 »

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

Here's something I'd find useful:

In a formation of warships, it'd sometimes be nice to have the option of disguising one's numbers and the types of warships by having a "no unique emissions," option, which would avoid turning on radars which were unique to that ship in the formation. For example in a CSG, it might make sense to turn on the CRUDES radars because there's a bunch of them, but it wouldn't make sense to turn on the CVN's radars because that would just highlight it to the enemy ES. While you can do this kind of thing manually, it gets tedious fast having to check each and every sensor periodically.

And I'll come back to templates instead of just formations. This scenario is one I used to partially justify templates that include positional formations and EMCOM formations that can be switched and applied on the fly.
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by BDukes »

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen
ORIGINAL: Gunner98
I'm not really sure, perhaps one of the pros has an idea. I would suggest EMCON but I think you're already using that.

EMCON is fine. DEFCON is just plain wrong. DEFCON is was about readiness for nuclear war and didn't have anything to do with emissions.

Btw, something I think is important to think about, before you go all in on this, is that all the capability to do EMCON the right way is already in LUA, so if you're not going to make something better than what is there already, I'd strongly suggest doing nothing at all because it just be creating problem that doesn't exist.

Agree and would be awesome for some of our LUA guru's to start building libraries of this stuff for people to use.

This being said I'm suggesting something that I'm way to lazy to actually put together but would gladly donate to somebody's patreon for!

Mike
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SeaQueen
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by SeaQueen »


Agree and would be awesome for some of our LUA guru's to start building libraries of this stuff for people to use.

This being said I'm suggesting something that I'm way to lazy to actually put together but would gladly donate to somebody's patreon for!

I post stuff to LUA Legion. Feel free to use it.

The problem with LUA is that it's really not suitable for game play. It's better for when you're designing the scenario and you want to get a specific behavior from the computer controlled side. On the human controlled side, we need a better interface.
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Gunner98
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by Gunner98 »

I post stuff to LUA Legion. Feel free to use it.

The problem with LUA is that it's really not suitable for game play. It's better for when you're designing the scenario and you want to get a specific behavior from the computer controlled side. On the human controlled side, we need a better interface

Yeah, it is one thing to use lua for designing - in which case an easily searchable lua library would be fantastic. Lua Legion is great but it is hard to find stuff, and you need to know exactly what your looking for, how to use it and how to modify it.

And it is difficult for a player to use.

So automating what can already be done in lua would be an excellent place to start, the button-ology etc will take fine tuning but that will come. I think a phased approach would be wise; once we get our hands on it - we won't like some things and we'll want to do other stuff with it. So building chunks of this with a plan to expand bit by bit would be the way to go.

B
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by boogabooga »

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

Agree and would be awesome for some of our LUA guru's to start building libraries of this stuff for people to use.

This being said I'm suggesting something that I'm way to lazy to actually put together but would gladly donate to somebody's patreon for!

I post stuff to LUA Legion. Feel free to use it.

The problem with LUA is that it's really not suitable for game play. It's better for when you're designing the scenario and you want to get a specific behavior from the computer controlled side. On the human controlled side, we need a better interface.


Special Actions?
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thewood1
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by thewood1 »

Special Actions work, but I think you need something almost like macros.
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RE: WIP - Intermittent Emission

Post by mikerohan »

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Special Actions work, but I think you need something almost like macros.

Maybe a button to modify missions that opens up a LUA console/logic that it's linked to the mission
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