Waltzing into Hungary

[Parkkicks]

Has anyone tried this? As soviets? Just looking at the map and for a fitting punishment for the invasion it looks like that if I abandon the south or let’s face it, everything but Moscow and Leningrad., I can move most of the southwestern front into the mountains on week 1. Swinging northwest to krakow would take 2 armies out of play in a race back home. Am I crazy?

[CapAndGown]

I should think you should save those mountain divisions. You will need them by 1944 when you need to get across the Carpathians for real and not in a suicidal plunge in 1941.

[Parkkicks]

I actually think it’s a significant move. It takes one or two German armies away from the front with just 100k troops and 1200 tanks with a weak enemy and little expected fighting. With 1 army removed from the German front, soviets have a chance to win in Romania, and Hungary and those remaining forces would move through Poland to Germany drawing more armies from the front. With two armies removed, the rest of sw front can defend Kiev, and Odessa is held through 41. Would the soviet force be strong enough to win against 2 German armies? No. One German army? That depends on how badly the Romanians get beat.

Thoughts?

[821Bobo]

What? Germans can't enter Hungary(edit. only T1 rule) and Hungary has army on its own. All you will achieve is actually unlock more Axis troops to be used against Soviet union.

[Parkkicks]

I’m hypothesizing and formulating strategy. 100k soviets and 1200 tanks into Hungary surely would draw at least one German army away from the front. Winning in Hungary would be significant and not require millions of troops. The consequences of diverting a German army or two can be huge right? Combined with a southern front victory, adding the draw/delay in Romanian reinforcements, the situation in 1941 appears better is what I’m trying to argue.

[821Bobo]

This is Soviet T1, with what exactly do you think you can invade and fight your way through the mountain passes?

[carlkay58]

I will also mention that the Soviet player CANNOT abandon everything but Leningrad and Moscow - the Axis will win a Sudden Victory with the VPs present in the south. So you could do that, but the war will end in 41 as an Axis Sudden Victory.

[Parkkicks]

^ good to know. I would move toward the standard retreat. How long until the sovs have enough units to stall the drive?

As I said I took 100k men and 1200 tanks, pretty much everything in range of the mountain passes, from lvov, and a bit north and from the east above southern front. What better use could those guys give me if they are going to retreat anyway until new units arrive. They will just be defeated in Kiev, and taking an army or two out of play would be well worth it.

[821Bobo]

Hungary dont surrender, you cant kick it out of the war anyway.

[CaesarCzech]

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Hungary dont surrender, you cant kick it out of the war anyway.

Which is bullshit and i hope mods will adress it kinda like linear theatre system that doesnt give incentive to invest in theater boxes, of course you are not getting invasion of Britain but Cairo might be doable realistically.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: CaesarCzech

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Hungary dont surrender, you cant kick it out of the war anyway.

Which is bullshit and i hope mods will adress it kinda like linear theatre system that doesnt give incentive to invest in theater boxes, of course you are not getting invasion of Britain but Cairo might be doable realistically.

as ever, you can disagree and keep it polite.

In the war while Hungary technically surrendered, the Hungarian army (what was left of it) fought on, so we treat it that way.

and, Hungary is fully on the map, not in a Theatre Box.

[GloriousRuse]

I’ll just translate “BS” to “I think that’s a historic and unrealistic.” With that in mind...

As Loki points out the Hungarian army fought until the end.

But even if they were in a surrendering mood, the idea that because one suicidal/soon to mopped up soviet army was busy starving to death in the mountains while the Hungarian army went to finish it would somehow cause the Hungarians to surrender to the apparently-getting-brutalized 1941 USSR, upsetting their erstwhile allies who have conquered all of Europe and have forces all around them...I think that would register as higher on the scale of unrealism.

As for theater boxes. The TBs are a feature to add context to the east, for an operational war game about the east. They’re linear because the basic supposition of the game is that the rest of the war affects you, but isn’t yours to dramatically re-write it. For one, the mechanisms aren’t in place to represent a massive battle for the med that would enable sufficient supply to actually grow the Afrika Korps substantially beyond history, nor to have the western allies shift their warplans to adjust to your move, and then adjust the overall course of the war with vast strategic changes. You’re not going to get HOI on the sidelines (well, HOI is pretty much a fantasy game, but a realistic version thereof) while you play WITE2 on the main screen. Maybe in another decade or two there will be the fabled War in Europe and it’ll will have to adjust for things like losing the Suez, but this isn’t that game.

[Numdydar]

So taking a Pz division out of Russia and sending it to the Med would not have any effect?

[GloriousRuse]

In game it has the effect of delaying the overall progression of the WA for some amount of time as determined with ground success checks, thereby knocking back the North African and Italian Campaigns. This in turn provides relief against rapidly expanding calls on German forces and resources until later in the war - potentially providing breathing space in ‘42 and ‘43 while the east is still anything more than a dogged one way battle. That is the linear part.

What the system won’t do is provide counter-factuals like taking the Suez Canal or throwing the Normandy landings into the sea. It’s not that game.

Now, if we’re asking “would an extra panzer division change the North African campaign in reality?” I’m guessing that given the tremendous supply problems, it would have created some additional tactical success before it too attrited to shambles without enough fuel, parts, or replacements. If I recall by El Alamein with just two Pz Divs there were routine delays where divisions couldn’t pull enough fuel forward, and the divisions were really large battalions in terms of their running armor. An additional division would no doubt shine bright, but then suffer or even expedite the logistical implosion of the Afrika Korps during the drive on Alexandria.

[AdmiralHalsey]

Now what about if you also shifted all the eastern fronts transport aircraft and a fliegerkorps of fighter support, and the flieger division and some Italians to take Malta...

[Searry]

I think we all know what happened to the axis airforce in the mediterranean, especially the transport fleet.

This game isn't about the what ifs and counter-factuals. There are many other games for that. If the axis don't win in 1941 to 1942, all they can do is try to keep as many VP as possible.

[AdmiralHalsey]

Being able to experiment with shifting additional forces to the Eastfront at the expense of other sectors, and alterately away from the Eastfront to other sectors, seems exactly the sort of Counterfactual the Theaterbox system designed to represent, up to and including significantly extending Italy's participation in the war, and the release of Finnish troops.

[TheFerret]

While that's the sort of thing the TB system could represent, it seems that other than giving the Axis a few Finnish units after capturing Leningrad, counterfactuals aren't what the TB system represents in the game as designed. But between the TB system and being able to open/close different areas of the map, it seems like modders can create their own counterfactual scenarios.