Murmansk Convoy revisit

[smckechnie]

I think that developers should relook at the convoy routes to Russia again. Note attached article that shows all of the ways that the US sent supplies to Russia. Obviously, the article could be challenged, but I was unaware of how much the US helped Russia. 33% of the USSRs explosives came from lend lease!! I would note the following for revision.

1. US lend lease to Russia started in March of 1941. So probably convoys should be pegged like they are to the British vs USSR being atttacked.
2. The Murmansk convoy looks to have been the least used route to supply Russia. Note the massive amounts sent through the Persian gulf. No current convoy to the Middle East.
3. It appears that the Murmansk route was effectively closed from December through February? Too much Ice.
4. Current game has the weather along the Murmansk convoy route as sunny all of the time? Played a game against Taifun and noted how great the weather was year round up there in our game. In reality, the weather sucks most of the time and for at least half of the year, you only have a few hours of daylight. There is basically little daylight time from November to March. In our game, weather up there is like the French Rivera for Luftwaffe and carrier ops. Doesn’t appear to have been any carriers along the route north of a certain point.
5. Note that there is also an air route that was used from Alaska to Siberia to fly in aircraft.

Anyway, game is really great as is, but something to look at, as it is already pretty hard to hold Russia against really good players.



https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lea ... 99486.html

[BillRunacre]

Thanks for the link, that looks very interesting and I'll give it a read.

In terms of 2. the USA can only have one active convoy and that of course goes to the UK.

Although we do have a scripted event for supplies via Vladivostok I'm very hesitant to introduce anything via the Persian Gulf because without a direct convoy line the Axis could raid, I am sure Axis players would ask for a way to intercept these convoys, and there is no easy way of replicating that.

4. Do you mean around Norway? The port itself is ice-free but maybe the chance of rains or storms could be increased along the route itself?

[Yvan1326]

Hello,
the limitation to only one active convoy, is this a limitation of the game?
I assume this is for all countries?
that's a shame!

[Taifun]

Of the 17.5 million long tons of U.S. Lend-Lease aid provided to Russia, 7.9 million long tons (45%) were sent through Iran.

The Americans alone delivered over 16.3 million tonnes to the Soviets during the war, via three routes, including Arctic convoys of World War II to the ports of Murmansk and Archangelsk. Also, Soviet shipping carried supplies from the west coast of the United States and Canada to Vladivostok in the Far East, since the Soviet Union was not at war with Japan at that time (not until August 1945). The Persian Corridor was the route for 4,159,117 long tons (4,225,858 metric tonnes) of this cargo. However, this was not the only American contribution via the Persian Corridor - not to mention the contributions of other Allies like Great Britain, Canada, South Africa, Australia, and numerous other nations, colonies, and protectorates of the Allied nations. All told, about 7,900,000 long tons (8,000,000 metric tonnes) of shipborne cargo from Allied sources were unloaded in the Corridor, most of it bound for Russia - but some of it for British forces under the Middle East Command, or for the Iranian economy, which was sustaining the influx of tens of thousands of foreign troops and Polish refugees. Also, supplies were needed for the development of new transportation and logistics facilities in Persia and in the Soviet Union. The tonnage figure does not include transfers of warplanes via Persia.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: Yvan1326

Hello,
the limitation to only one active convoy, is this a limitation of the game?
I assume this is for all countries?
that's a shame!

Yes, only one active convoy per country is possible.

[pjg100]

Why not handle this as it is handled in WIE, with a DE for MPP transfer from the US to USSR via the Persian corridor? The DE could provide that the MPP shipments via Persia will cease if the Axis captures, e.g., Tehran, Basra or any of the various towns along the way, similar to what happens with the Burma Road. The MPPs available via Vlad and the Murmansk convoy would have to be reduced by a commensurate amount. This would add some motivation for the Axis to push aggressively in the Middle East.

[BillRunacre]

That side of it is possible, however the reason it works in War in Europe but not here is because the Indian Ocean isn't represented in that, whereas it is here and Axis players will understandably want to be able to raid the convoy before it reaches Persia.

If that isn't possible then I know it will be asked for, and unless I can work out a way of replicating this possibility then we'd be introducing something to please Allied players, while at the same time frustrating Axis players.

This is really the fundamental issue for which there isn't an easy and straightforward, satisfactory solution.

[pjg100]

Understood. What about a DE that provides for the MPPs to be interrupted or reduced in the event of Axis naval units within X hexes of various waypoints? That would create a notional convoy line that the Axis could raid, and that the Allies could defend, if they so wish.

[BillRunacre]

That is one potential option that I've been thinking about, I'm just not yet at the stage of feeling as comfortable with it as I'd like.

That might change, I find it's often best to mull things over and sometimes a better idea arrives, we grow comfortable with the original idea, or we reject it.

For instance, my brain spent months pondering how we could represent the US sending supplies to the USSR via Vladivostok, and then I woke up in the middle of a night with the ideas all fully worked out. Obviously it's been modified a bit since, but when that moment happened I felt confident about implementing it in the game, and it is that feeling that I'm after getting here too.

[Jackmck]

we'd be introducing something to please Allied players, while at the same time frustrating Axis players.

Just about everyone plays both sides- especially the best players. Actually necessary to be a very good player to do so.

Game designers shouldn't worry about pleasing different Axis and Allied audiences- it is the same player audience.

Concerning historically accurate US shipment of aid through the Middle East, figure out a way for the US to have two convoys. Maybe though a proxy. Other games have this- this one should too.

[Chernobyl]

2. The Murmansk convoy looks to have been the least used route to supply Russia. Note the massive amounts sent through the Persian gulf.
https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lea ... 99486.html

I am under the impression that the Murmansk route delivered more finished war items such as trucks and tanks, while the Vladivostok route was mostly raw materials. I would assume that the Iran route is more raw materials than the Murmansk route, also, but I'm not sure.

Is anyone an expert on the average composition of the tonnage for the three routes?

[Moonchild]

I'm not an expert, but i believe that the treaty between Japan-Russia stated that arms (tanks, planes, munitions etc) could not be shipped through Vladivostok. The Russians created a maritime company, the US sold (or handed over) a lot of merchant ships to this Russian company that operated the pacific (Vladivostok) convoys, which the Japanese inspected regularly to ensure that no weapons were transporterd. Mursmansk and Persia routes were both used for the arms deliveries.

*edit* the following is on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Route

Pacific Route:
... the route was therefore used to transport foods, raw materials and non-military goods such as lorries and other road vehicles, railway locomotives and rolling stock. It was also the most practical route for goods and materials produced in the US western states.

During the conflict the Pacific Route saw a steady stream of goods moved from the west coast of the United States and overall accounted for some 50% of all Lend-lease goods to the Soviet Union.

[Chernobyl]

Hmm okay, so Vladivostok received more than raw materials.

The Japanese were insane. How could they possibly think it might be a good idea to go to war with the Allies but allow the USSR to take in 8 million tons of supplies right under their noses?

[Platoonist]

The Japanese were insane. How could they possibly think it might be a good idea to go to war with the Allies but allow the USSR to take in 8 million tons of supplies right under their noses?

Probably because both Russia and Japan considered it to their respective advantages to maintain strict neutrality with each other during most of the Pacific War. The drubbing the Japanese took at Nomonhan in 1939 left a deep impression. Both Japan and Russia maintained large garrisons along the Russian-Manchurian border, but these were often viewed as a ready source for reserves for the conflicts in other theaters. It also seems likely that the Axis powers never really trusted each other, and their policy towards Russia was completely uncoordinated in spite of the obvious value of coordinated policy towards the Soviet Union.

For example, the Japanese proposal to attack Madagascar in 1942 was strongly opposed by the Germans as an infringement on the German sphere of operations (the dividing line was at 70 degrees east longitude.) Hitler is reported to have stated in March, 1942 that he would enjoy lending Britain twenty divisions with which to drive back the Japanese in the Far East. Racism probably played a part as well. Allied prisoners of war working at the docks at Singapore reported that a U-boat crew came to attention and saluted them as they were marched past by their Japanese captors, which was taken as an insult by their Japanese hosts.

Bumbling, incoherent Axis diplomacy was probably one of the greatest assets enjoyed by the Allies.

[Shellshock]

The Japanese were insane.

They declared war on the largest economy in the world with ten times their industrial capacity while 80% of their army was mired deep in a war with a country with the largest population in the world.

For Japan, insane was a feature, not a bug.