Japanese Unstoppable?

[generalfdog]

With the new version I am wondering if anyone else thinks Japan is to strong? before they would have such severe oil issues that they would run out of steam and the Allies would have time to get some transports and recover now it seems they can just keep rolling and since their initial objectives take a month or so to accomplish instead of 5 months like historical they can destroy Australia and India before the Allies can even respond. I think Philippines, DEI, and Singapore need beefed up or the Allies need some transports earlier, but I've been wrong before

[eskuche]

Yes, I am testing out openings: anything ungarrisoned can be taken immediately. DEI and Rabaul are gone turn 1. Port moresby and Fiji and co can fall on turn 2 if done correctly. Singapore turn 3. This is why I initially thought the new naval oil use values were bugged. As long it is planned out, unless USN wants to risk losing everything immediately there is no stopping.

[stjeand]

Are you playing the AI or a human?

I suspect AI and believe me there is a HUGE difference.


Once you play a human all your thoughts may change.

In WP Europe any side you play against the AI seems overpowered. Then you play a human and suddenly everything changes.

[eskuche]

It doesn’t matter for turns 1-2 because there is no counterplay. The only active units for the allies are air, which doesn’t have oil. Small islands are blockaded immediately which prevents reinforcements.

[generalfdog]

Stjeand you are correct needs to be tested against a human I am working on that it just takes time, the allies just seem to have so little they can do until well in to 42, and if Japan can just keep rolling seems the allies might have an issue. I equate early stages of this to Fall of France if its to hard Axis have a problem if its to easy Allies have a problem, i just think everything being 3 to 5 months ahead of schedule to be an issue for the allies and play balance, it's like France falling in January of 40!

[stjeand]

Well if the Japanese do not take the DEI turn 1 or 2...they will be crippled. I suspect they will run out of oil.

So that is required.

Island hopping to every little island is the same.

I don't think most of those islands matter at all. They are just listening posts.


The question will be as the Allies ramp up...what can they do in 42...that will be the interesting thing.


Once the Axis have all the islands...then what?
That Japanese economy is still half of what the US has.

Guess we have to see. It does take a lot of time to get there though and validate.

[Numdydar]

The main issue with the '41 start is the game does not model correctly the oil reserves that Japan had stored up before the war began. So Japan is forced to capture areas that were impossible for them to do in the real war. Needless to say this screws up the entire game with a '41 start.

I would strongly suggest that only a '42 start should be used as the '41 start is too broken as things stand now.

[generalfdog]

Versus the computer by the time the Allies can do anything India and Australia are gone and Japan is destroying China, its at least a long road back for the Allies

[stjeand]

Did you play historical AI or the upgraded?


Upgraded is SO much tougher.


If the 42 scenario is anything like the 40 Europe scenario no thank you.

The Germans are a mess...as is their economy.

Japan looks okay in 42...

But again you keep saying it all over against the AI.



When I play WP Europe against historical AI it is over when any scenario starts.

Say NO to AI...and play a human.


I am happy to play as the Allies since you believe the Japanese are unstoppable. But Multiplayer has not worked for me in a week so...

[generalfdog]

I think it is the old games got messed up with update, the new games have been working for me. You right new random AI way better I used to be able to win on hardest level either side, any scenario in Europe tried updated on veteran and they giving me a challenge anyway. If you start a game as allies with code "stop" I will accept and we can see what happens

[Meteor2]

I would like to know, why this setting for the 41 campaign was chosen.
Giving Japan the oil for a 6-9 month war and aim for historical dates of the conquest for DEI, Burma, Singapore, and so on is a bad idea?
Alvaro or the beta testers can answer the reasoning behind this, because they have that experience, I think.
A discrepancy of 4 month between history and game settings seems to be (to?) much.
???

[incbob]

I haven't played it all out and am just starting my first game as the Japanese so take this with a grain of salt.

As Japan I have about 2 turns, maybe 3 worth oil and that is it. That is pretty close to what happened. When Japan went to war they had about a month of oil for full deployment.


Japan is supposed to be unstoppable. That is the point. Japan is a glass tiger. They cannot replace their losses. So at the beginning of the game they have to grab for everything they can get. And when they stretch to far, such as invading Australia, or moving to far, to fast, into China and they lose units they increase their chance of losing the game, because it makes them weaker when Allies do get their strength.

Also, are you playing against a human or AI. I have never seen an AI that doesn't need help.
What level of AI are you playing against.

As for Japan conquering to quickly remember this is a Corp/Army level game. So, what do you do with something like the Philippines where the US didn't have strong forces after mid-January.

Take Singapore as an example. Singapore surrendered Feb 7th. But by the time Singapore was ready to surrender the fighting was long past over.
Take the Philippines. Now, if you look it up you find that the Philippines surrendered in May. That makes it sound like it was in doubt till May. It wasn't. By early March the situation was so bad MacArthur had to be ordered out and had to sneak out on a PT boat. That means realistically the fighting was over in February at the latest.

Might it be off a turn or even two. Maybe. You also have to remember game balance. Playing real WW2 would not be fun. It wouldn't be a game.

[gwgardner]

+1 what incbob said. Even playing Japan vs AI, what Japan takes has to be held. Play for the long-term, see if you can hold what you have taken late into the war.

Historically, the US didn't respond till mid to late summer '42. It had to ramp up, get supplies moving. Japan didn't take Australia, but it had no intention of doing so anyway. A human player will have different intentions. It was playtester experience that things really heat up in '43 and later, just as in history.

I would urge Alvaro not to change anything with regard to balance until a lot of you guys have played through to the end, to get broader and varied input.

In the meantime, give the AI a big supply/efficiency bonus and a small experience bonus.

[AlvaroSousa]

Nothing is being changed at the moment. Unlike Europe where each front can be changed in small doses predicting the impact on other fronts, a change in the Pacific impacts the entire game. So more data will be required. Then there is the ability of hindsight in the game. The Japanese should do better than expected if an Axis player understands the flaws the Japanese had in their strategic-level thinking and compensates for them. For the Allies it is a similar situation but not as vitally important.

[stjeand]

I think a lot more PvP needs to be tested.

All the testing against AI is great for some things but really need to test how humans will react over how AI will react.

[incbob]

ORIGINAL: stjeand

I think a lot more PvP needs to be tested.

All the testing against AI is great for some things but really need to test how humans will react over how AI will react.

I agree, but at this moment I do not feel I know enough about the the game rules yet to play PVP. In truth, I shouldn't have even started an AAR, but no one else was. I am almost there I think. Right now I am working on understanding invasions and understanding the marine island hoping thing.

[stjeand]

Well I have yet to play a game past 3 turns in and I started a PvP...I just can't seem to get into wanting to play the AI even though I should.

PvP games are where I learn the most. I have played quite a few others that sometimes after 5 or 10 turns we have to restart because of a major mistake and I don't mind.
Then again I know WP Europe pretty well so that will help a LOT with everything BUT I still learn something new almost every game I play.

Having an actual navy that can fight another one will be pretty interesting though.
I look forward to those battles though even if I lose.

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: incbob

I haven't played it all out and am just starting my first game as the Japanese so take this with a grain of salt.

As Japan I have about 2 turns, maybe 3 worth oil and that is it. That is pretty close to what happened. When Japan went to war they had about a month of oil for full deployment.

The fact that you only have 2-3 turn of oil (which is 4-6 weeks) is totally wrong. There are plenty of easy ways to check this out just to see how wrong this is.

Japan had been secretly stockpiling oil since the 30s. They also passed a special law in 1934 to increase the amount of oil they want to save. Here is a good article explaining Japan's oil situation.

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/O/i/Oil.htm#:~:text=By%2013%20March%201941%2C%20the,purchased%20from%20the%20United%20States.

I truly do not understand why something so incorrect in a supposedly historical game, cannot be corrected. We are not talking about 'what if' strategies, or different things that can be done by moving units around. I am talking about something that is grossly factually wrong in the game's data. This should be changed.

All the non-realistic game openings by Japan are done just because the starting amount of oil is incorrect. But yet we have to wait for more data? Really? Why?

[eskuche]

I was confused as well because I’ve heard 18 months stockpile tossed around for quite a few times. Perhaps that means 18 months of current production rather than use…?

[YueJin]

Sorry but how would giving Japan more starting oil change the non-realistic openings? They'd just rush even faster down the Solomon's after the turn 1 DEI surrender and be blockading Nomea and Fiji turn 4. With say, 100 extra oil turn 1 the Japanese could keep the combined fleet at sea supporting invasions and refuelling with oilers for most of 1942.