Barbarossa

The sequel of the legendary wargame with a complete graphics and interface overhaul, major new gameplay and design features such as full naval combat modelling, improved supply handling, numerous increases to scenario parameters to better support large scenarios, and integrated PBEM++.
User avatar
Lobster
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:12 pm
Location: Third rock from the Sun.

Barbarossa

Post by Lobster »

Someone asked about this so I thought I would post it for everyone. It's only Barbarossa btw. 15 June to 31 December.
ORIGINAL: Lobster
ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith
BTW, weren't you working on a scenario of the entire WWII from 1933, world scale at 2.5km per hex? Whatever became of that? I was SO looking forward to playing it.

I'm assuming sarcasm there but as long as you bring it up. Deploying the Axis. I have no good information about deployment at the regimental scale so I go with divisional. I'll let the Axis players decide how to deploy divisional, corp and army assets depending on historical assigned areas of operation since there's no hard information to go on. They'll have a week to do this. The turn before the invasion, 21 June, the Soviets will be allowed to move each frontier unit one hex in either direction parallel to the frontier. This will keep the German player from playing the opening move over and over and over again to get that perfect first turn move that some people thinks make them extra good generals. Variety is the spice of life. [;)]

I was concerned I wouldn't have enough formations for the Soviets but squeezed it in at 980 formations with each infantry/mech/tank division in it's own formation.

You can get a good idea of the immensity of the undertaking on the German side.



Image
Attachments
CampaignBarbarossa.jpg
CampaignBarbarossa.jpg (2.42 MiB) Viewed 760 times
ne nothi tere te deorsum (don't let the bastards grind you down)

If duct tape doesn't fix it then you are not using enough duct tape.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein.
User avatar
Zovs
Posts: 9218
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:02 pm
Location: United States

RE: Barbarossa

Post by Zovs »

Wonder if it will be even playable, not only for the old and aging TOAW system, but for the humans as well. Let alone the AI.
Image
Beta Tester for: War in the East 1 & 2, WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific, Valor & Victory, Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm, Computer War In Europe 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator
Tester for WDS games
User avatar
ncc1701e
Posts: 10717
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:50 pm
Location: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards

RE: Barbarossa

Post by ncc1701e »

Impressive map. would it be possible to extend the map west towards Berlin one day? Or, is it already limited by what the game engine can do?
Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
gliz2
Posts: 454
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:04 am

RE: Barbarossa

Post by gliz2 »

This a great work 👍
Any particular need to have some much ground east of Moscow?
Plans are worthless, but planning is essential.
User avatar
Zovs
Posts: 9218
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:02 pm
Location: United States

RE: Barbarossa

Post by Zovs »

The map is fantastic, but I worry with the size of the map and terrain, with objectives and victory location and then with the maxing of formations and zillion of units, will the game even work or just crash?
Image
Beta Tester for: War in the East 1 & 2, WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific, Valor & Victory, Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm, Computer War In Europe 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator
Tester for WDS games
User avatar
Lobster
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:12 pm
Location: Third rock from the Sun.

RE: Barbarossa

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Wonder if it will be even playable, not only for the old and aging TOAW system, but for the humans as well. Let alone the AI.

It has the same AI as FitE2. [:D]

Won't be any different than playing that. Well, it will be a bit less time.
ne nothi tere te deorsum (don't let the bastards grind you down)

If duct tape doesn't fix it then you are not using enough duct tape.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein.
User avatar
Lobster
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:12 pm
Location: Third rock from the Sun.

RE: Barbarossa

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Impressive map. would it be possible to extend the map west towards Berlin one day? Or, is it already limited by what the game engine can do?

We can't make maps that large.
ne nothi tere te deorsum (don't let the bastards grind you down)

If duct tape doesn't fix it then you are not using enough duct tape.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein.
User avatar
Lobster
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:12 pm
Location: Third rock from the Sun.

RE: Barbarossa

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: gliz2

This a great work 👍
Any particular need to have some much ground east of Moscow?

Just taking Moscow would not have been enough. The population centers between Moscow and Gorkiy also need to be dealt with not to mention the factories around Gorkiy. Like any board game there are levels of victory and defeat.
ne nothi tere te deorsum (don't let the bastards grind you down)

If duct tape doesn't fix it then you are not using enough duct tape.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein.
User avatar
Lobster
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:12 pm
Location: Third rock from the Sun.

RE: Barbarossa

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: Zovs

The map is fantastic, but I worry with the size of the map and terrain, with objectives and victory location and then with the maxing of formations and zillion of units, will the game even work or just crash?

Mine doesn't. Years ago I could run the old FitE on my old piece of crap machine and it would take forever to load but it wouldn't crash my machine. No TOAW scenario ever has regardless of it's size. Maybe if you have an old 486 or something like that with 128k memory. [:D]

Sounds like you don't trust Bob's and Ralph's work. They do good work. [;)]
ne nothi tere te deorsum (don't let the bastards grind you down)

If duct tape doesn't fix it then you are not using enough duct tape.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein.
User avatar
Zovs
Posts: 9218
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:02 pm
Location: United States

RE: Barbarossa

Post by Zovs »

I currently have 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD and 3 cores. I think the code is ancient and over loaded and won’t be able to perform very well with the size of your map, how many units do you have? I think it will break Elmers little mind...
Image
Beta Tester for: War in the East 1 & 2, WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific, Valor & Victory, Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm, Computer War In Europe 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator
Tester for WDS games
User avatar
Peresvet
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue May 04, 2021 6:57 pm

RE: Barbarossa

Post by Peresvet »

Truly impressive scale and level of details! There's one thing that a little annoys me though. It seems that most (if not all) wargame WWII maps tend to depict reservoirs that were yet non-existent during the war. For example, only 1 out 6 reservoirs on Dnieper existed during the war. Most Volga reservoirs were also constructed only after the war. However, it seems that all today's reservoirs are present on this map.
User avatar
Lobster
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:12 pm
Location: Third rock from the Sun.

RE: Barbarossa

Post by Lobster »

You're seeing swamp aka flooded marsh. The only dam is at Zap.
ne nothi tere te deorsum (don't let the bastards grind you down)

If duct tape doesn't fix it then you are not using enough duct tape.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein.
User avatar
Peresvet
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue May 04, 2021 6:57 pm

RE: Barbarossa

Post by Peresvet »

Oh. I see. Yeah, it's hard to tell the difference between marsh and river at this scale :-)
User avatar
rhinobones
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 10:00 am

Maneuver Units

Post by rhinobones »

Like that you’re injecting some player defined deployments into the scenario and limiting the killer first move syndrome. Think there are quite a few scenarios which would benefit from your design.

In the New Patch thread post #44 you stated, “I have no good information about deployment at the regimental scale so I go with divisional”. That almost sounds like your base maneuver unit is the division. I’m probably misreading your intent; please clarify.

Regards
Colin Wright:
Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

Post by broccolini » Sun Nov 06, 2022
. . . no-one needs apologize for douchebags acting like douchebags
User avatar
Lobster
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:12 pm
Location: Third rock from the Sun.

RE: Maneuver Units

Post by Lobster »

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

In the New Patch thread post #44 you stated, “I have no good information about deployment at the regimental scale so I go with divisional”. That almost sounds like your base maneuver unit is the division. I’m probably misreading your intent; please clarify.

I have found only a few maps that display where individual manuever regiments on either side are deployed. These cover small areas and only one or two divisions on each side. Even less information is to be had for division/corps/army/force level support elements. So, where do you put all of that? It amounts to a huge amount of units. WitE uses a simple assignment method where you simply assign support elements to forces with no physical units involved. TOAW has no such function.

What I have done is to start the game one week before the invasion begins. For the Axis all support elements are stacked with or in the vicinity of a parent HQ unless it is specifically assigned to a different HQ when the invasion began. This one week pre invasion allows the Axis player to move support elements to areas where manuever elements belonging to a HQ are positioned. For instance if a division is part of a corps that is part of an army that is part of an army group then those support elements belonging to the corps, army or army group can be moved to the division's deployment area to support the division. Otherwise I would be dictating to the Axis player where they have to use support elements without any concrete proof that is actually where those support elements were deployed.

Further, since I don't have enough information to deploy divisonal manuever regiments divisions have deployment areas. The regiments and divisional support elements and any higher level support elements belonging to the division's hierarchy can also be deployed in that area.

I can't see any other way to deploy support elements or a division's regiments without just guessing where all of these support elements and regiments went. I feel that would be unfair to the Axis player. On a map with a larger scale it might not matter as much but when you get down to 2.5km per hex and one day turns it makes a big difference. Divisions are still deployed in areas where they appear to belong. It's not like entire army groups are allowed to redeploy. The Axis player will have to be somewhat effiecient in moving the support elements since they would want artillery to be above 100% supply. I'll probably increase Axis supply until 22 June to help with that. And honestly, the Germans didn't even have many of their divisions in their jumping off points a week before the invasion.


Image
Attachments
410616A.jpg
410616A.jpg (513.83 KiB) Viewed 754 times
ne nothi tere te deorsum (don't let the bastards grind you down)

If duct tape doesn't fix it then you are not using enough duct tape.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein.
User avatar
Hellen_slith
Posts: 2009
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:46 pm

RE: Maneuver Units

Post by Hellen_slith »

SWEET! Can't wait to give a go on it :)

Me and David will give it a workout ... when's beta? 2022 sometime? Hurry up, man, I ain't gonna live forever!!

:)
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4121
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Maneuver Units

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith


Me and David will give it a workout ... when's beta? 2022 sometime? Hurry up, man, I ain't gonna live forever!!

:)

You'd need to live forever to play this.
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
jmlima
Posts: 771
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:45 pm

RE: Maneuver Units

Post by jmlima »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith


Me and David will give it a workout ... when's beta? 2022 sometime? Hurry up, man, I ain't gonna live forever!!

:)

You'd need to live forever to play this.


Pfff. This is all amateur stuff. Now, if it was a 1m hex - individual soldier scale representation of the entire Eastern Front 1941-1945, then we would be talking. Anything less than that is not a suitable representation of the conflict.
User avatar
golden delicious
Posts: 4121
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 8:00 am
Location: London, Surrey, United Kingdom

RE: Maneuver Units

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: jmlima


Pfff. This is all amateur stuff. Now, if it was a 1m hex - individual soldier scale representation of the entire Eastern Front 1941-1945, then we would be talking. Anything less than that is not a suitable representation of the conflict.

Come on- really, you need to model the individual limbs and organs so you can model the effect of various injuries.
"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."
jmlima
Posts: 771
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:45 pm

RE: Maneuver Units

Post by jmlima »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: jmlima


Pfff. This is all amateur stuff. Now, if it was a 1m hex - individual soldier scale representation of the entire Eastern Front 1941-1945, then we would be talking. Anything less than that is not a suitable representation of the conflict.

Come on- really, you need to model the individual limbs and organs so you can model the effect of various injuries.

I stand corrected. You are, of course, entirely correct.

I now need to ask, giving the possible usage of atomic bombs, do we dare to go to atomic particle level?
Post Reply

Return to “The Operational Art of War IV”