CV Problems - Oil

[kennonlightfoot]

I thought I would start some discussion threads on how the game handles Carriers with a specific topic related to the handling of CVs. Thus the subgrouping of this one being "Oil". The mechanics brought over from the Europe game where CV's were not a major part of the game don't all together work in Pacific. So I thought we could explore some of these problems and whether they can be fixed by the game, by tactics, or house rules.

The first subject being Oil. There are a lot of problems about how oil is used and why it isn't apparently having any effect on the game outside of forcing the Japanese to take DEI as quickly as possible.

The major change from the Europe game is that CV's only require 1 Oil to operate just like DD's. Actually almost all the ships, except coastal, us just 1 Oil to operate. This has a lot of side effects. The most obvious is that a six CV massed group with BB's, CA's, DD's, etc. can go to sea and stay there for a very long time because they really don't use much oil. I have never had a problem keeping this mass group at sea continuously for the first year of the game and still have my oil reserves increase to nearly the 100% level. Not until US subs get deployed in quantity does this change. This could never be done in Europe because of the 3 Oil cost of CV's.

The problem is caused by multiple parts of the game.

1. CV's just don't cost much to keep at sea. Once the Japanese have DEI they get about 65 Oil per turn. With every ship at sea they seldom see a usage rate above 46 (which is the highest number I have seen). Usually the higher rates occur due to triggering land penalties and using air power.

2. Oil production is probably a bit to high for the current level of ship usage.

3. Oilers are to effective at their cost level at keeping these ships at see.

In this thread I only want to discuss the Oil usage of CV's and how it relates to item 2, Oil Production.

The first solution I see is to increase Oil usage like it is in Europe. CV's 3. Other ships according to size. I don't remember the numbers form Europe but maybe something like:

Large Warships BB: 4
Regular BB: 3
CV: 3
BC and CA: 2
CVL: 2
CVE: 1
CL and DD: 1
Subs: 1

This would also require an adjustment to Oil production. The idea being to make the production/consumption balance such that the Japanese can't keep their fleets continuously active.

[ncc1701e]

I have never noticed but you are right. It makes sense that big ships consume more.

[eskuche]

I brought this up at launch. Alvaro confirmed that the reduced costs are correct, but they are probably a little too low. A 25-40% adjustment or so would be appropriate to make the Japanese player really think about using both full air and naval assets at once. Decreasing airgroup costs would allow for a higher naval cost as well. Currently, baiting air interdiction in very low recon hexes burns a reasonable amount of fuel, and airgroups are already limited by effectiveness much more than ships are.

[AlvaroSousa]

We need more games played to reveal this. In WPE the Axis manage the oil. That is the point here for the Axis. They need to manage their oil. If they can launch all ships all the time infinitely and use all aircraft then it is a problem. Same for the Allies except they should have a greater ability to do so

[kennonlightfoot]

ORIGINAL: eskuche

I brought this up at launch. Alvaro confirmed that the reduced costs are correct, but they are probably a little too low. A 25-40% adjustment or so would be appropriate to make the Japanese player really think about using both full air and naval assets at once. Decreasing airgroup costs would allow for a higher naval cost as well. Currently, baiting air interdiction in very low recon hexes burns a reasonable amount of fuel, and airgroups are already limited by effectiveness much more than ships are.

They need to be balanced. Using DD/CL as the "1", all other ships should consume oil in proportion to the DD's.
Production would have to be adjusted up to make the overall average consumption right.

The objective is to make the cost such that the player has to have purpose in putting his capital ships to sea. Not just roaming around because the cost is so low, why not.

Historically, the Japanese prestige ships like the Yamato were floating hotels for the high command. They could afford the oil to send them out for anything other than a major operation like Midway.

[eskuche]

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

We need more games played to reveal this. In WPE the Axis manage the oil. That is the point here for the Axis. They need to manage their oil. If they can launch all ships all the time infinitely and use all aircraft then it is a problem. Same for the Allies except they should have a greater ability to do so

I would say the Japanese can use 5-6 airgroups per turn at maximum. While floating 10-20 oil above maximal navy usage, this makes it pretty trivial to manage oil. I'll say I've never looked at oil in my two games, and I think I use everything when possible (when not repairing).

Good players will generally not leave airgroups on full mission support during the enemy turn because it's extremely easy to burn oil at max range, especially with rain. A decent solution would be to have a half-range full mission toggle. This avoids nitpicky micromanagement in setting exact ranges. Not sure how hard that is to implement. Otherwise, I would consider lowering enemy turn interdiction oil costs.

[Uxbridge]

Add a cost in oil points when initiating production of oilers.

[kennonlightfoot]

ORIGINAL: Uxbridge

Add a cost in oil points when initiating production of oilers.

I haven't quite figured out how it comes up with its upkeep number but it looks like it is mainly tied to how many units at sea. The trouble with air units is they use up "1" oil whenever they are used which the Japanese player has to watch out for. But it is easy to control since the only time the air units have to be used are for sinking US and UK ships on turn 1 and again when they get ready to take Singapore and Manila.

The thing I see as a problem is all ship units use "1" oil regardless of their size. I think there should be more penalty for keeping CV's and BB's at sea constantly.

[AlvaroSousa]

Oil isn't supposed to cripple like it did historically. This is a FUN game. Does anyone want to keep the Yamato and Musashi in port for 80% of the game because it's historically accurate?

The idea is that you do need to manage some. Account for the US smacking your convoy lanes. Be forced to used planes a ships. Decide when to send out and when not to.

Technically in WPE it is very hard to whack the Germans for oil. But they do have to watch their consumption.

[kennonlightfoot]

I am thinking along the lines that it should require the Japanese to manage their oil supplies but not shut them down. In 43/44 it the Japanese will probably get shut down but I haven't gotten any games to go that far to see how the balance is.

Right now the DEI conquest is the critical branch. And, it is controled by weather more than anything else. If the weather is clear it will fall on Dec 21 turn. This is almost a game over if the the Japanese side doesn't. Their oil production is 3. When DEI falls it jumps to at least 50. The Japanese start with an inventory of 160 which drops on the first turn to about 90. If DEI falls it starts going up and the Japanese player doesn't have to worry to much about it. Other things will limit how much oil is needed.

Because there doesn't seem to be anything the US/UK can do to slow the Japanese down in 42 the war shifts to India and Australia rather than Burma and the Pacific. I am still trying to determine if any US response involving CV's is suicide or not. I keep coming up with great Japanese tactics but not even good US/UK counter tactics.

Need some AAR's to see if anyone else is solving these problems.