Long Range Amphibious Transports

[BillRunacre]

Hi everyone

A number of players have expressed concern that the ability of Long Range Amphibious Transports to both Cruise and disembark in the same turn is a bit much.

I'd like to gauge opinion on this before we commit to making a change here, as we need to be certain that it is the right move to make, i.e. would removing the ability to do both in one turn upset any valid strategies?

I'm inclined to think not, but have a think about this and then let me know. [:)]

Bill

[taffjones]

Hi Bill

I think it should be changed.

Speaking from experience (Falklands 82). After the mad dash down there the ships slowed down so we Army lads could sort ourselves and kit out ready before we landed. Quite a lot of the lads had suffered with sea sickness quite badly and needed a calmer 48 hour period to recover.

So the change would replicate this, also in WW2 the troops were crammed into ships taking turns to sleep, eat etc, so they would have been in a worse condition than we were.

It would also prevent the UK from DoW'ing on Denmark to gain access to the Baltic, destroy the KM and follow it up with invading 1 of the Baltic states before France falls (Elite players have done this to me [:D] )

[fluidwill]

I think its an exploit and should be nerfed [:-]

[ThunderLizard11]

I'd be concerned about a shift in game balance towards Axis. Main advantage is attacking Italy and parts of Asia as Allies. If no offsetting change is made to Axis I'd leave as is or maybe up odds of damage from doing a cruise/disembark in same turn - maybe double odds?

[vonRocko]

I vote not to change it.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Naval cruise [and] disembarkation in the same turn seems to lead to some close to gamey strategies imho. Allied side gambits on Italy, Denmark and even Japan home islands using this technique comes to mind. The Japanese can pull this kind of stuff too.

Still, nerfing this mechanic is a touchy subject for sure..but I lean towards taking this ability away. It would make players come up with more realistic decisions when doing landings...not the helter-skelter suicide runs that no nation would have done.

[redrum68]

IMO its pretty unrealistic and gamey so I'd vote to change it. Though the point that it probably nerfs the allies more than axis is a fair one.

[Jackmck]

I don't think it should be changed, although the ability of the French to do LRA should be reduced to the same as Germany. With both France and the UK able to do a LRA in 1939/40 there are some very gamey moves that shouldn't be allowed, in my view.

Taking away the LRA disembark the same turn as cruise would affect the Allies more than the Axis- Japan could plan ahead more but the US would be even further behind in turning the course of the war. I suspect there will be fewer allied victories as a result; especially in the Pacific.

[Cpuncher]

I agree it seems more of an exploit to cruise and land in the same turn (I also believe to capture a port and land a whole Army Front in the same turn should be disallowed, that is, freshly captured ports should not be allowed to disembark regular transports in the same turn), but this change will impact the Allies a lot, and some balancing tweaks will be promptly needed.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

I agree it seems more of an exploit to cruise and land in the same turn (I also believe to capture a port and land a whole Army Front in the same turn should be disallowed, that is, freshly captured ports should not be allowed to disembark regular transports in the same turn), but this change will impact the Allies a lot, and some balancing tweaks will be promptly needed.

Interesting discussion. I am for anything less gamey although I love being able to do this as Japan. I see a lot more transports lost having to wait another turn to land...more risk for sure..

You bring up a good point about ports you mean having to wait another turn to land here as well?

Maybe another option would be to lower naval movement points overall so there is more risk to crossing? Hard to say what the best answer is this will definitely be a big game changer...

[Chernobyl]

Not sure about overall axis vs allies game balance, but amphib units already seem incredibly powerful just for their ability to get their "free" attack attacking from a sea hex, often devastating, completely wiping out entrenched enemy land units without any need to actually hit the beach. I would tone down this ability somewhat and also give the defender unit the ability to inflict losses in retaliation.

I thought amphibious assaults in WWII were supposed to be extremely difficult and costly.

Or if no change to their attack values, you could simply change how Amphib tech works - limit it to level 3 and one research chit at a time and increase the cost of the tech. That would also have the effect of slowing down amphib transports if people dislike that.

But I'm a newbie at this game so don't take my opinion too seriously.

[Cpuncher]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

You bring up a good point about ports you mean having to wait another turn to land here as well?

Yes either having to wait another turn or just making sure ports are always captured with strength 4 or below. This will ensure the player having to hit the beach with a sufficiently strong initial landing force, instead of capturing a port with just 1 amphibious unit, then ship a huge Army Front in... also the randomness of whether the port is captured with strength 5 or not is too big of an impact to the game outcome...people seem always can capture ports intact...

[EarlyDoors]

it comes down to a simple question

Is a successful invasion currently too easy, too difficult or about right?

I think it's about right, certainly not easy especially against Fortress Europe.
It also allows Japan to be surprising and aggressive.

If naval cruise + disembark were to be removed I think the game would need to find a way for Spying + Intelligence to 'spot' empty towns/ports

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

French suicide Transport trying for Kiel, lol.
British Calvary suicide Transport(s).
Swarm Italy to make them surrender based on Morale.
Swarm Asia with USA transports.

Everything is gamey. Russia is getting pounded, you really have a choice? Yanks Level 3 & Long Range Bombers in 1942.

Comes down to the skill of the players.

[snooky51]

I think an offset is maybe changing the Vladivostok lend-lease route. About half of all aid to the Soviet Union went through the Pacific with 8 million+ tons going through Vladivostok, and something like only 400k going through the Bering Strait. You could drastically increase the MPP value of the Vladivostok route (helping Soviet Union) with any blockading attempts immediately causing war between Japan and USSR (ships flew soviet flags, which is why they were allowed to use this route) plus some kind of NM damage to Japan for starting a war with USSR (they were very afraid of fighting the USSR).

[Chernobyl]

ORIGINAL: snooky51
About half of all aid to the Soviet Union went through the Pacific with 8 million+ tons going through Vladivostok, and something like only 400k going through the Bering Strait.

That's riciculous that Japan allowed this. What the hell were they thinking? Bomb American battleships and the Americans will sue for peace, but don't intercept millions of tons of goods keeping the Soviets afloat cause that might make them mad!

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo

French suicide Transport trying for Kiel, lol.
British Calvary suicide Transport(s).
Swarm Italy to make them surrender based on Morale.
Swarm Asia with USA transports.

Everything is gamey. Russia is getting pounded, you really have a choice? Yanks Level 3 & Long Range Bombers in 1942.

Comes down to the skill of the players.

This whole subject ties in on how easy the USSR can get pounded...and which results in the activity you just mentioned

[Chernobyl]

Maybe russia needs some balance changes too?

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Don't think there's really a right or a wrong. Will always be exploits, it's a game.

Another idea: What if Allies could send more MMPs on the convoys? Brits are what 30% of their money, could change it to 60%. Get some more action in the East and weakened the West.

[havoc1371]

Get rid of the ability to land if the AVL makes an extended move. Its a game, but that is beyond unrealistic to launch amphibious ships that far for an invasion.