Air Combat Report (AC losses exceeding those that fought?)

[DeletedUser44]

Not only are the results questionable, but I find the AC numbers used in the Air Combat very confusing. So much so I have to dig through the details to try to figure out what the heck occurred. (... and I still can't ...)

Summary (per Air Combat details... verified via Commander's Report)
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37x Bf-109F2s vs 3x MiG-3s

losses:
7 Bf-109F2s (2 A2A, 5 OPS)
5 MiG-3 (5 A2A)

Results(?)
-----
37 - 7 = 30 Bf-109F2s
3 - 5 = -2 MiG-3 ???


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Could the 3x MiG-3s displayed perhaps be "post-combat" results? (a wild guess to try to make sense of this...)

I really hope not, as I would expect to see consistent numbers that reflect:
* combat strength at 'beginning' of combat (those that actually fought)
* losses (as a result)

However, the way it is displayed, first thoughts that come to mind is "hmmm... (3 - 5) MiG-3s.... how did they end up with negative 2 MiGs ???)

=====

(screen shot for following provided in subsequent post)

I have another Air Combat example (Soviet Supply) detailing:

8x Bf109F-2s vs 0x Yak-1, 30x Li-2s

losses:
1 Bf109F-2 (1 OPS)
12 Yak-1s (12 A2A)
3 Li-2s (1 A2A, 2 FLAK) (note: these Li-2s still tough as nails.... [:)] )

Another combat showing AC losses exceeding those that actually fought. How can 12x Yak-1s get shot-down, when 0 fought?

So, in this case, we have '-12' Yak-1s as a result of this Air Combat, unless '0' is to be interpreted as a 'post-combat' result?

Currently, I have no idea how this is supposed to be reconciled.

[loki100]

because the fighters were in the hex from the air phase, so the losses are in the hex and picked up.

This has been happening ever since WiTW as you see air combat in a battle report even when neither side used GS but it reflects earlier GA/AS etc

[DeletedUser1769703214]

I bet you there was an Air Superiority flown in the hex. If you look at my post you will see the same anomaly happening all the time when an AS is present. Did you read any of those posts?

[DeletedUser44]

Screen-shot for 2nd example....

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

Screen-shot for 2nd example....

See post #2 & #3 of this thread

[Joel Billings]

Losses and/or number of a/c flying during transport missions are notoriously wrong in the combat reports. Gary doesn't really understand a lot about the combat reports, yet he wrote a lot of the code for the transport missions. That is a recipe for things not looking right in the combat reports. I would tend to trust the last action loss screen values showing the a/c lost.

[DeletedUser44]

Not sure if I can completely buy-in to the AS theory yet, not unless it can be attributed to the 2nd example as well.

Would AS show up as 'ESCORT'?

[DeletedUser44]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Losses and/or number of a/c flying during transport missions are notoriously wrong in the combat reports. Gary doesn't really understand a lot about the combat reports, yet he wrote a lot of the code for the transport missions. That is a recipe for things not looking right in the combat reports. I would tend to trust the last action loss screen values showing the a/c lost.

This is unfortunate as this is really one of the few tools players have to verify and validate any weirdness encountered.

I will check the 'last action' screen as well.

[DeletedUser44]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I bet you there was an Air Superiority flown in the hex. If you look at my post you will see the same anomaly happening all the time when an AS is present. Did you read any of those posts?

So sorry, I have not read every post on the forum. Has it been starred or flagged?

If some of these numbers are getting pulled from AS missions, you would think the Air Combat reports could not appropriately reflect it.

At the end of the day, players need to be able to reconcile these numbers... or these reports loose value and credibility.

If players do not have all of the relevant data, not only does it obscure pertinent game mechanics, but turns the game into a huge 'trial & error' labyrinth. I can see that adding to a lot of player frustration.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I bet you there was an Air Superiority flown in the hex. If you look at my post you will see the same anomaly happening all the time when an AS is present. Did you read any of those posts?

So sorry, I have not read every post on the forum. Has it been starred or flagged?

If some of these numbers are getting pulled from AS missions, you would think the Air Combat reports could not appropriately reflect it.

At the end of the day, players need to be able to reconcile these numbers... or these reports loose value and credibility.

If players do not have all of the relevant data, not only does it obscure pertinent game mechanics, but turns the game into a huge 'trial & error' labyrinth. I can see that adding to a lot of player frustration.

I agree. I was seeing the same thing you have to a varying degree. That is why one of my games is on hold until after the Air War gets updated in the near future.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

Not sure if I can completely buy-in to the AS theory yet, not unless it can be attributed to the 2nd example as well.

Would AS show up as 'ESCORT'?

What type of losses were they? Ops or A2A?

****NOTE I am just a player not part of the Dev team or a major tester

[DeletedUser44]

I may not be posting in the correct thread, but it relates to 1st example of the excessive OPS losses incurred.

(the one where I lost 7 Bf-109F2s, mostly to OPS losses. grrrr.....

It also relates to using *any* of the Game pre-selected AC for transport missions.

Well, I got lazy and just went with one of the escorts the Game had pre-selected. In this case, it was JG3.

It was really out-of-range for this escort mission. I believe that is the reason for the excessive OPS losses.

OPS losses only accounted to 13% of all German Luftwaffe losses on the Eastern Front through 1941.

So seeing something like 5 out of 7 Bf-109F2s lost due to OPS should be a huge RED FLAG something is amiss.

Well, yeah.... I used one of the Games pre-selected Transport escorts.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

Take a look at your airbases in Soviet territory. What is there experience level? In the 40 - 50's right?

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Take a look at your airbases in Soviet territory. What is there experience level? In the 40 - 50's right?

It is a bug since German AB's should be in the 70's & being fixed in next patch I think. But not 100% sure.

[DeletedUser44]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Take a look at your airbases in Soviet territory. What is there experience level? In the 40 - 50's right?

It is a bug since German AB's should be in the 70's & being fixed in next patch I think. But not 100% sure.

JG-3?

Experience: 80+

Morale: 80+

Fatigue: 10 (after the mission) So it was probably much less before and had hardly flown until this mission.

Airbase Morale: 49 (but all Soviet Airbases have sucky morale like this and do not encounter excess OPS losses like this with them)


I believe it was a range issue.

EDIT: added screen shot of 'Last Action' losses, which it is not very helpful and does not attribute any to 'operational'... or anything. *sigh*

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Take a look at your airbases in Soviet territory. What is there experience level? In the 40 - 50's right?

It is a bug since German AB's should be in the 70's & being fixed in next patch I think. But not 100% sure.

JG-3?

Experience: 80+

Morale: 80+


I believe it was a range issue.

Yes, it is a range issue. But look at the Airbases itself Experience which will also factor into your losses because of the Airbase experience.

[Joel Billings]

The captured airbase experience is fixed in 1.01.15, hopefully coming tomorrow.

Gary reported that the Op losses in the case where no planes flew was due to a routine that kicked in that was landing flights. I haven't spoken to him yet about this, but I think it's part of Pavel's code, and why the AS flights are landing in the friendly phase and taking op losses and fuel use when they were set to fly in the enemy phase is a mystery. It will likely remain a mystery until Pavel has a chance to look deeply into it.

[DeletedUser1769703214]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

The captured airbase experience is fixed in 1.01.15, hopefully coming tomorrow.

Gary reported that the Op losses in the case where no planes flew was due to a routine that kicked in that was landing flights. I haven't spoken to him yet about this, but I think it's part of Pavel's code, and why the AS flights are landing in the friendly phase and taking op losses and fuel use when they were set to fly in the enemy phase is a mystery. It will likely remain a mystery until Pavel has a chance to look deeply into it.

Thank you as always being super responsive

[Zovs]

In my latest tests with the new patch for AS I was seeing SWEEP and assumed it was from the AS missions I had set. I believe I posted in the T1 AD thread.

[AlbertN]

I've noticed something else that may be buggy - but will post in the Tech Forum - pertinent to Air Transport.