Effectiveness drop for fleets

[*Lava*]

So with the 041 patch, there are some rather harsh (IMO) drops in effectiveness rates of ships the farther they are from a supply port.

This especially hurts the US if they are island hopping in the direction of Truk. The Japanese can reach the Gilbert Islands from Truk with their fleet in one move, it takes 2 for the US.

A 36% drop in effectiveness makes things very difficult to fight in this area, though it dramatically decreases losses in battles.

It also will pretty much force the Americans to have to fight from a supply base in New Caledonia and take Rabul first.

Thus, it reduces the options for the US to pretty much one. That will allow the Japanese to concentrate all their CVs in the area they know where the US CVs will have to operate in.

It also means that after every battle, you will have to return to base to get your effectiveness back up, while in the actual war, the US fleet was constantly at sea.

If that is what ya'll want, that's cool. Won't need oilers any more. But personally I would like to see the effectiveness drop adjusted a bit, and give oilers, like trucks, the ability to boost effectiveness.

[AlvaroSousa]

It is meant to force the Allies to island hop. They are so overwhelming in 1944+ that in the previous version they can simply stroll up to Japan with a massive force and invade from the West Coast.

The US Navy realized they couldn't just sail up to Japan. Large ships expend an enormous amount of fuel. Then after one fight their ammo is expended. So imagine sailing up, getting into naval combat, then having to sail home across the Pacific with no fuel or ammo. Easy pickings.

It is also how WitP does it. They require you to take bases to advance.

The Allies can launch off of Australia, India, or the Marshalls. I am in 2 late games now testing how this will all play out.

[*Lava*]

Okay, I understand that.

So are you wanting the US forces to take Enewetak and upgrade that port to serve as an operational base for the US moving across the Pacific, island hoping?

Won't the Japanese be able to do the same? It will make taking the Marshall Islands pretty darn difficult as the Japanese will take only a 12% hit to effectiveness while the US will take 36%.

[AlvaroSousa]

Anyone can upgrade these locations. But the Japanese have to think very carefully about the consequences if they do.

[CrackingShow]

How does the drop in effectiveness work? Is it if you stay out of port for more than one turn?

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: CrackingShow

How does the drop in effectiveness work? Is it if you stay out of port for more than one turn?

Nope, its similar to land combat. Any combat leads to a drop of effectiveness. After an attack the unit will try to regain its effectiveness by small increments each move.

The problem here is, after you strike Pearl Harbor and return to say Truk, it will take almost 9 months for your ships to return to 100% effectiveness (after taking of 36% hit in effectiveness), and unlike ground units, you don't have a way to increase that with trucks.

Hence, my recommendation to lower the cost of oilers a tad and allow them to not only give fuel, but also be used to increase effectiveness. (Only the allies will be able to afford this.)

So after Pearl Harbor, the Japanese will be in port for quite some time to recover effectiveness. When the US comes out, it won't make any sense to island hop because of the huge amount of effectiveness they will lose and the only real option will be for them to take Rabul, and then Truk. As these operations will at most incur a 12% effectiveness hit.

[Remington700]

ORIGINAL: *Lava*

The problem here is, after you strike Pearl Harbor and return to say Truk, it will take almost 9 months for your ships to return to 100% effectiveness (after taking of 36% hit in effectiveness), and unlike ground units, you don't have a way to increase that with trucks.

The loss in effectiveness does slow down the game, as I think was the intent. It seems to push toward always resting some carriers so they will be available when needed. And forces carrier battles to be fought at lower effectiveness. I want to test how well three 100% CVs do against six 75% effectiveness CVs but have not had time. I suspect the six would still stomp the three. Also, it will be very interesting to see how the limited stack approach works with the new effective rules.

What the change in effectiveness does do well is push out the invasion of Japan until until you can control a viable supply line.

[*Lava*]

I agree that one shouldn't be able to exploit the game and have the US bypass all islands and attack Japan. What I am saying is perhaps, the solution is a bit of over kill and needs to be scaled back a bit.

I am presently playing the AI as the Japs. It is January 1943. At present I have 14 CVs to the US 8. I am putting on a full scale push to take China out of the War. I have forward deployed bombers into the Pacific and Solomons. So far the Allies are starting to push hard in Burma and are building up in Australia for a push against Rabul. No CVs have had any contact yet.



I have built up Enewetak so that I can forward deploy my Navy if the the US attacks the Marshall Islands. The US will be losing 36% effectiveness in their Navy if they appear here. My strategy will be to use bombers to whittle down their effectiveness, perhaps attack with a couple CVs to reduce it more and then attack with my full fleet at 100% to force them out.



In the solomons I will use the same strategy if I encounter Allied CVs in the area. Attack them with land based air. Then engage them with a small fleet to reduce their effectiveness. Finally attack them with either my 6 CV carrier group based in Singapore via Rabul or my 6 CV carrier group at Truk.



So my overall naval strategy will be to engage in small attacks first, to lower effectiveness and then bring out my fleet to hammer them.

We'll see what happens.

[CrackingShow]

It has killed my doom stack tactics. It just takes too long to recover effectiveness if you use a huge fleet to fight your battles.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: CrackingShow

It has killed my doom stack tactics. It just takes too long to recover effectiveness if you use a huge fleet to fight your battles.

That is why I am looking forward to the 6 max ship stack Alvero is working on. Seems like it will solve a lot of issues.

Nevertheless, the Japanese logistical tail for maintaining their fleet and especially their naval aircraft (whether at sea or on the shore) was terrible. OTH, the US built a logistical system which maintained their fleet constantly at sea.

But it seems the punishment is a bit too heavy for the Japanese and for the US, there is no way to simulate that superior logistical system.

Hence my recommendations to back off a bit on the effectiveness losses and give oilers the ability to gas up and increase effectiveness.

[AlvaroSousa]

Next patch we adjust it if need be.

[marty01]

ORIGINAL: *Lava*

Okay, I understand that.

So are you wanting the US forces to take Enewetak and upgrade that port to serve as an operational base for the US moving across the Pacific, island hoping?

Won't the Japanese be able to do the same? It will make taking the Marshall Islands pretty darn difficult as the Japanese will take only a 12% hit to effectiveness while the US will take 36%.

Searching the rules manual again -- how does one "upgrade" a port?

[Remington700]

ORIGINAL: marty01

Searching the rules manual again -- how does one "upgrade" a port?

Per page 54 of the manual, "Some ports between size 2 and 4 maybe be upgradable when a land unit with the engineer specialty is present at the port."

There are only a few ports that can be upgraded. Open the supply overlay (S-key) to bring up the supply view. The ports with the anchor and plus sign can be upgraded. For example, Henderson Field.

[*Lava*]

Yep,

It upgrades about every month or so if I remember correctly.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: *Lava*

Hence my recommendations to back off a bit on the effectiveness losses and give oilers the ability to gas up and increase effectiveness.

I think this is a good idea that supply oiler is helping to restore a little effectiveness. Not much but a little. Just like supply trucks are restoring effectiveness for air/land units.

[marty01]

ORIGINAL: Remington700

ORIGINAL: marty01

Searching the rules manual again -- how does one "upgrade" a port?

Per page 54 of the manual, "Some ports between size 2 and 4 maybe be upgradable when a land unit with the engineer specialty is present at the port."

There are only a few ports that can be upgraded. Open the supply overlay (S-key) to bring up the supply view. The ports with the anchor and plus sign can be upgraded. For example, Henderson Field.

Thanks. Silly me...there are two versions of the game manual in the manual folder. I've been reading the EBooks Game Manual thinking the two versions were identical. But the "printable" version of the Game Manual is not identical in its content to the ebooks version. The bit about the upgradeable ports isnt in ebooks.