Axis Logistics '41

[jubjub]

Just some observations from my game vs Beethoven. I made a couple of changes from what I used to do, and it's making a huge difference.

The biggest change I made was setting all my division level TOE's to 50%.

Making this change prevents your units from hauling 1,000's of tons of reinforcements from 30 hexes away. The main effect is to keep MP higher while minimizing truck losses. This screenshot is from turn 4. Clearly, the supply situation is not perfect, but at least my panzers aren't wasting trucks hauling heavy equipment hundreds of miles.



The second big change I made was to keep depots at level 4 longer than I used to. I'm only releasing the freight once they've stopped sending much supply out (<500). This causes them to pool freight which is released to the front line depots. So far, this has caused front line depots to receive freight in excess of 10,000 tons. The exceptions this turn being Minsk and Daugavpils only receiving 6000.

[jubjub]

Some smaller stuff I've done is keep the Luftflotte HQ's in Germany, since they can be up to 90 hexes away from the air combat for the full benefit. I've also been experimenting with keeping units on level 1 supply. This doesn't help as much as you'd think, and I definitely recommend keeping front line units all at level 2 or higher.

I also turned almost every depot off in Germany except a couple of port cities and built depots in Hungary to supply all the units there within three hexes.

An additional observation is that repair prioritization is a waste of time, and you're better off spending the AP manually assigning a construction unit to the city.

[Beethoven1]

bwahaha, now I see where you depots are! Expect 50,000 bombing sorties next turn targeting your depots! (just kidding)

[Beethoven1]

Oh yes, and I can see what airfields you are using. Now to exploit this by night bombing them before the patch comes out making night bombing more balanced! (again, just kidding, wasn't gonna exploit night bombing airfields before, and not gonna start now)

[GoodbyeBluesky]

I have made the same finding especially with the lvl 4 depots. I am now pooling Supplies for example in Constanta until its full and only then letting the shipping fill up a select port where units will rest for a turn (I also was experimenting with refitting mauled Panzers there).

I have also seen a good effect with pooling supplies in border cities like Brest-Litovsk and then only pushing that further when I get a big city depot like Kiev or the like.

It seems to just help since freight from germany to poland is much easier to prehaul it and then exhaust your polish stockpiles to fill up depots where units are congregating (this way you can also make sure that units will be close and thus hauling their newly arrived supply with horse carts instead of valuable trucks).

I will try pulling my Air HQs back though or leaving them on polish depots for extra supply gathering

[Yogol]

If you put several depots on the rail line at level 4, won't it use trucks to sent out supply from the second, third and fourth 4-depot to front troops?

Why not just put those on 0? So, instead of 3 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4, put 3 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 4 (with all army HQs on the last depot, obviously)?

(Constance being the exception, I put it on 4 from turn 1 so it fills up, just like you. And once I have an import ports, I put it on 3 and then back on 4 to refill. Idem for Konigsberg, but that depot sometimes uses rail instead of the port, so it is less efficient).

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Yogol

If you put several depots on the rail line at level 4, won't it use trucks to sent out supply from the second, third and fourth 4-depot to front troops?

Why not just put those on 0? So, instead of 3 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4, put 3 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 4 (with all army HQs on the last depot, obviously)?

(Constance being the exception, I put it on 4 from turn 1 so it fills up, just like you. And once I have an import ports, I put it on 3 and then back on 4 to refill. Idem for Konigsberg, but that depot sometimes uses rail instead of the port, so it is less efficient).

No, its conditional. Assuming you have a decent enough supply net I find that HQs/units rarely pull supply over 10 hexes - there are 2 parts to this ... that region must have enough and you may need to manage demand down.

so a #4 outside that range builds up freight, it may take something like Minsk + army grp HQ around 5-6 hexes to fill up. When you need more front line supply, either because you are going to attack or have moved east, drop it from 4 to say 1 or 2. All that stored freight runs forward. Its the benefits of a super depot without tieing up a FBD.

If that rear depot is #3 it won't work. It'll pick up some freight but each turn will release any stock to nearby #4s.

[Rosencrantus]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Yogol

If you put several depots on the rail line at level 4, won't it use trucks to sent out supply from the second, third and fourth 4-depot to front troops?

Why not just put those on 0? So, instead of 3 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4, put 3 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 4 (with all army HQs on the last depot, obviously)?

(Constance being the exception, I put it on 4 from turn 1 so it fills up, just like you. And once I have an import ports, I put it on 3 and then back on 4 to refill. Idem for Konigsberg, but that depot sometimes uses rail instead of the port, so it is less efficient).

No, its conditional. Assuming you have a decent enough supply net I find that HQs/units rarely pull supply over 10 hexes - there are 2 parts to this ... that region must have enough and you may need to manage demand down.

so a #4 outside that range builds up freight, it may take something like Minsk + army grp HQ around 5-6 hexes to fill up. When you need more front line supply, either because you are going to attack or have moved east, drop it from 4 to say 1 or 2. All that stored freight runs forward. Its the benefits of a super depot without tieing up a FBD.

If that rear depot is #3 it won't work. It'll pick up some freight but each turn will release any stock to nearby #4s.

From what I remember trying to do this the last time I played a GC 41 (which was a while ago) making a large depot behind the front lines like Minsk lvl 4 gave me some supply issues at the front as most rail lines go W - E in 1941, meaning that any freight that is getting stockpiled behind the front is freight that could've been sent to the front. I wouldn't really use this unless you're building up for an offensive at which supply usage at the front would be lower or you have a well developed rail network with multiple connections (so nice for StB, Germany gets all the rail repaired so use this strat often). I definitely could be wrong though, while I've read the manual on how freight transportation works, it still feels like magic to me sometimes as the system is both very robust and a bit finicky at times.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

...

From what I remember trying to do this the last time I played a GC 41 (which was a while ago) making a large depot behind the front lines like Minsk lvl 4 gave me some supply issues at the front as most rail lines go W - E in 1941, meaning that any freight that is getting stockpiled behind the front is freight that could've been sent to the front. I wouldn't really use this unless you're building up for an offensive at which supply usage at the front would be lower or you have a well developed rail network with multiple connections (so nice for StB, Germany gets all the rail repaired so use this strat often). I definitely could be wrong though, while I've read the manual on how freight transportation works, it still feels like magic to me sometimes as the system is both very robust and a bit finicky at times.

If you are advancing rapidly this is a bit slower, so there is a case for a short super-depot to get it going.

What it feeds off is freight that can't make the full journey, so it shouldn't be starving your front line depots. The huge benefit is when you release this freight, since its a short distance haul, and you have a big rail depot in place, it reliably flows into the front line.

So agree, its not great if you have a single track rail and the front is currently moving at some speed. But once your advance slows its fine. Realistically, I tend to find post-Smolensk, my gains towards Moscow etc are not that dramatic as the advance to Smolensk.

[Rosencrantus]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

...

From what I remember trying to do this the last time I played a GC 41 (which was a while ago) making a large depot behind the front lines like Minsk lvl 4 gave me some supply issues at the front as most rail lines go W - E in 1941, meaning that any freight that is getting stockpiled behind the front is freight that could've been sent to the front. I wouldn't really use this unless you're building up for an offensive at which supply usage at the front would be lower or you have a well developed rail network with multiple connections (so nice for StB, Germany gets all the rail repaired so use this strat often). I definitely could be wrong though, while I've read the manual on how freight transportation works, it still feels like magic to me sometimes as the system is both very robust and a bit finicky at times.

If you are advancing rapidly this is a bit slower, so there is a case for a short super-depot to get it going.

What it feeds off is freight that can't make the full journey, so it shouldn't be starving your front line depots. The huge benefit is when you release this freight, since its a short distance haul, and you have a big rail depot in place, it reliably flows into the front line.

So agree, its not great if you have a single track rail and the front is currently moving at some speed. But once your advance slows its fine. Realistically, I tend to find post-Smolensk, my gains towards Moscow etc are not that dramatic as the advance to Smolensk.

That makes sense as long as the supply system knows to prioritize lvl 4 depots closer to units than ones behind the front line (which I guess it does, otherwise anything past this pseudo super depot would have 0 freight). Even so, when I did this back in my GC 41 game my depots at the very front had 400-500 tons less freight than what I normally received. This could have been caused by other factors so I'll need to do more testing next time I play a 41 game.

[Stamb]

I am playing my first GC and i am in the middle of 1st winter. Supply system is strange. I have a front line near Dnepropetrovsk - Kharkov - Smolenks- Novgorod. And while cities on the north have depots at lvl 3 and on the east side of Ukraine at lvl 4, same as Smolensk - they get very low amount of freight. When i make super depots at Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkov then the first city get around 17k of freight and Kharkov a little bit less.

In turn's summary there is no change in freight received in comparison with a turns without a super depots, but clearly when there is no super depot - much less freight (like 5-10 times!!!) is getting there.

Which looks like a bug.
I would understand that if there is no super depots then freight is distributed equally, as far as train capacity allows, between lvl 4 depots. But it is not happening.
It looks like when i have super depots - there is enough train capacity to get this freight to Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkov.
And when there is no super depots there - there is some trigger in a code that just divides amount of freight that they got by multiple times, because as i said in previous sentences: there is enough train capacity to move that freight to this cities in case of super depots. And if there is no super depots - there is much less freight in general is that region. There is no freight in Kiev or Lvov or any other city. Like trains are working in 1/10 of their capacity.

Very weird.

[Rosencrantus]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I am playing my first GC and i am in the middle of 1st winter. Supply system is strange. I have a front line near Dnepropetrovsk - Kharkov - Smolenks- Novgorod. And while cities on the north have depots at lvl 3 and on the east side of Ukraine at lvl 4, same as Smolensk - they get very low amount of freight. When i make super depots at Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkov then the first city get around 17k of freight and Kharkov a little bit less.

In turn's summary there is no change in freight received in comparison with a turns without a super depots, but clearly when there is no super depot - much less freight (like 5-10 times!!!) is getting there.

Which looks like a bug.
I would understand that if there is no super depots then freight is distributed equally, as far as train capacity allows, between lvl 4 depots. But it is not happening.
It looks like when i have super depots - there is enough train capacity to get this freight to Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkov.
And when there is no super depots there - there is some trigger in a code that just divides amount of freight that they got by multiple times, because as i said in previous sentences: there is enough train capacity to move that freight to this cities in case of super depots. And if there is no super depots - there is much less freight in general is that region. There is no freight in Kiev or Lvov or any other city. Like trains are working in 1/10 of their capacity.

Very weird.

If it's your first GC, there is a lot to learn. In my first GC I couldn't even make it past the 525 HWM, but with all the things I learned, in my second GC I found SP to be significantly easier, even on challenging and hard. In this AAR at the very end is how I set up my depots and my thoughts on why I do it.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... 02&mpage=4

[Stamb]

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

If it's your first GC, there is a lot to learn. In my first GC I couldn't even make it past the 525 HWM, but with all the things I learned, in my second GC I found SP to be significantly easier, even on challenging and hard. In this AAR at the very end is how I set up my depots and my thoughts on why I do it.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... 02&mpage=4

I also have an intermediate depots to store freight that was not able to get to a front (and they are empty in Ukraine). But as i wrote - there is just an insane difference between depots with an without a FBD on top of that for no logical, to my understanding, reason. Just making it super depot - somehow allows to pull X times more freight.
What is also strange - rail usage. With a super depot or without it - double rails usage is always 5xxx.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I am playing my first GC and i am in the middle of 1st winter. Supply system is strange. I have a front line near Dnepropetrovsk - Kharkov - Smolenks- Novgorod. And while cities on the north have depots at lvl 3 and on the east side of Ukraine at lvl 4, same as Smolensk - they get very low amount of freight. When i make super depots at Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkov then the first city get around 17k of freight and Kharkov a little bit less.

In turn's summary there is no change in freight received in comparison with a turns without a super depots, but clearly when there is no super depot - much less freight (like 5-10 times!!!) is getting there.

Which looks like a bug.
I would understand that if there is no super depots then freight is distributed equally, as far as train capacity allows, between lvl 4 depots. But it is not happening.
It looks like when i have super depots - there is enough train capacity to get this freight to Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkov.
And when there is no super depots there - there is some trigger in a code that just divides amount of freight that they got by multiple times, because as i said in previous sentences: there is enough train capacity to move that freight to this cities in case of super depots. And if there is no super depots - there is much less freight in general is that region. There is no freight in Kiev or Lvov or any other city. Like trains are working in 1/10 of their capacity.

Very weird.

ORIGINAL: Stamb

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

If it's your first GC, there is a lot to learn. In my first GC I couldn't even make it past the 525 HWM, but with all the things I learned, in my second GC I found SP to be significantly easier, even on challenging and hard. In this AAR at the very end is how I set up my depots and my thoughts on why I do it.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... 02&mpage=4

I also have an intermediate depots to store freight that was not able to get to a front (and they are empty in Ukraine). But as i wrote - there is just an insane difference between depots with an without a FBD on top of that for no logical, to my understanding, reason. Just making it super depot - somehow allows to pull X times more freight.
What is also strange - rail usage. With a super depot or without it - double rails usage is always 5xxx.

You are mixing up quite a lot here - and probably overcomplicating your analysis.

So delivery is a function [f(x) if that makes sense to you) of depot capacity, depot demand, local demand, railway capacity to deliver, railyard capacity to send. So "if there is no super depots then freight is distributed equally" isn't right.

A super depot distorts the network and adds x% more to that depot than would normally arrive (actual number is unknown). So other depots on a particular network get less. How you define a 'network' is situational.

If all your rails are showing 5k something is wrong. That is the residual usage from the last turn, ie that usage (capped at a value of 30k)/6. So if your network is that congested, then that is something to review. More links, secondary connections, intermediate depots are all feasible tools. Also think of reducing demand (ie HQ supply levels).

Intermediate depots, as discussed above, are best placed on large railyards (which is why I tend to use Minsk and Kiev respectively), at least 10 hexes from the front (ideally a bit more), priority 4 and give them a low level local demand. One trick here is to put your transports on nearby bases, that seems to trigger allocation.

But, and I'd really stress this, don't overthink this. Your tools are depot location and priority, linked to how you've repaired the rail net. My view now (& this has changed a lot since the game came out) is that super-depots are a bit of a dead end, certainly to be used to solve an immediate problem not as a tool of choice.

The other bit people overlook is supply demand (ie HQ priorities), in the winter of 1941 you may as well set this low, you can't meet the demand so don't create it - except in key formations where you identify real value.

More generally, simple experience really helps here. There are a lot of transition pts in the game, and they are different for each side, but the first time you'll get it wrong (as a lot of this is situational and judgement driven) but prepare better the next.

[Stamb]

ORIGINAL: loki100


You are mixing up quite a lot here - and probably overcomplicating your analysis.

So delivery is a function [f(x) if that makes sense to you) of depot capacity, depot demand, local demand, railway capacity to deliver, railyard capacity to send. So "if there is no super depots then freight is distributed equally" isn't right.

A super depot distorts the network and adds x% more to that depot than would normally arrive (actual number is unknown). So other depots on a particular network get less. How you define a 'network' is situational.

And this is a thing where i have problems. In Leningrad area i will set all front depots at lvl 3, with some lvl 2 at the back.
In the D, Z town, Kharkov, lvl 4.

Also demand on the east side of Ukraine is much higher then in Leningrad area.

And yet, without a super depots there will be only few thousands (writing from memory) freight received. This is in harsh winter. So having the only priority 4 depots here with greater division amount is not enough to pull freight there?

If all your rails are showing 5k something is wrong. That is the residual usage from the last turn, ie that usage (capped at a value of 30k)/6. So if your network is that congested, then that is something to review. More links, secondary connections, intermediate depots are all feasible tools. Also think of reducing demand (ie HQ supply levels).

Not all rails. Only double lines are yellow with 5k usage.


Also my infantry is lvl 2 from the start of the game, and panzers at lvl3 priority. But panzers are in reserve as they don't get enough supplies.

[AlbertN]

The Winter is just a bad time, especially first winter.
Axis have artificial limits imposed til April '42 or March '42 on top of the natural limits.

The artificial limit is an extra 'tax' of movement per rail-hex parcoured by the freight.

So because there are higher priority destinations it does not mean that they'll get the needed %, because probably it cannot simply get there in the needed quantities.

Also to undercut on supplies (ie. prio 1 or 2) very often is counterproductive as it destroys your own unit instead of destroying trucks. Less supplies = high attrition rate if close on enemy; morale drops like no tomorrow. (Try keep a Romanian division through the winter sitting in Kerch with absoluite no combat enemy presence and supply priority of 2 and their morale will drop from 50 to 37 just by sitting there in the cold even if in Fort Tier3.) Italians that started at 50 morale in T8 dropped to 40 just by sitting in Odessa and digging while the front was ... if not in Krimea at Rostov. That was even in summer as they -immediately- started to drop morale because 'supply priority 1'. Yes, even at Turn 9 Italian morale was just dropping as they marched!

What I am tinkering now is to math in the 30 hex limit, counting 30 rail hexes of Berlin for instance and starting to place depots there since Berlin railyards push only 30 hexes away / affect freight movement up to 30 hexes right? Which means Berlin itself does not push and shove up to 'Warsaw' (for what concerns the Railyard capacity).



In general Axis logistics to me are something to experiment with but my own experience with undercutting the supplies for sparing trucks spell disaster for the combat efficiency of the troops that melt away their morale rapidly.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

... there will be only few thousands (writing from memory) freight received. This is in harsh winter. So having the only priority 4 depots here with greater division amount is not enough to pull freight there?

....

As AlbertN says, first winter the big hit is on delivery - check out the first winter rules in the manual.

What you need is as many depots on a given area of the front as you can. Each will tend to get say 1,500-3,500 tonnes of freight but thats plenty for immediate needs.

This is why I've changed my mind about super-depots, your FBDs are far better used creating secondary rail connections so you can get this depot network in place

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

....
What I am tinkering now is to math in the 30 hex limit, counting 30 rail hexes of Berlin for instance and starting to place depots there since Berlin railyards push only 30 hexes away / affect freight movement up to 30 hexes right? Which means Berlin itself does not push and shove up to 'Warsaw' (for what concerns the Railyard capacity).
...

No, I'm sorry but this is spectacularly wrong.

Freight is at a depot, lets say Berlin as a NSS. The rail capacity to move it is drawn from railyards up to 30 hexes away. Once it is a 'train' it can move up to 200 hexes.

How far it moves depends on congestion and how much rail capacity is to hand. As the SMP cost rises, you need more 'trains' to move a tonne of freight.

If you aren't sure, check out the description of the system in the Player's Notes of the Game Manual

[Stamb]

I know that first winter is very hard for Axis. But the thing is that with super depots my back line depots have 0 freight stored, or even received, while without it they will store something. That is why it is looking to me that trains are not moving freight as they can (cuz in case of super depot they can). I will attach screenshots soon.

[Stamb]

This is screenshot from 4 turns before: no super depots but double rails are repaired and connected where they should be.
Check amount of freight that this cities get.
https://ibb.co/fNHF3W7

And compare it with super depots:
https://ibb.co/CwVJqKp

Units priority is the same. Units count also.

Without super depot there is no chance that i will be able to receive this freight.

P. S
Upload limit is 5mb now. Its to little as for example my screenshots are 5-7 mb each.