What's with the low vis games?

rbrunsman · Post by **rbrunsman** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 8:29 pm

*****"Steps on soapbox."*****

I keep watching people request PBEMs and, invariably, one or the other player says to make the vis 20 to 30 hexes. That's less than 1 mile! I haven't paid enough attention to see if it is the non-German player that mostly asks for this, but it seems a little unfair to take away the German's long range gunnery advantage while keeping the US arty advantage and the Russian hordes advantage.

Also, when vis is over 30, the smoke problem that everyone complains about is mitigated a bit since it takes 2 pops to block LOS then.

I'm all for low vis games, but this 20 to 30 hex range seems a little contrived to me. I think if you want a low vis game you should make it <10, otherwise you should have vis set in the 50s at least.

High vis games are challenging and fun. Give it a try.

******"Steps down from soapbox*******

Capt Chris · Post by **Capt Chris** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 9:13 pm

If you feel that your opponent is trying to do this to you, speak up. These settings are all negotiable and should be determined before the game begins. The failure to properly negotiate battlefield conditions and other game options is also part of the learning curve. Experience is what makes a veteran a veteran.

If both sides agree to lowered visibility then I say :p to the player who loses the advantage. He/She agreed to it. This goes along with the True Troop/Rarity settings which limits unit types and quantities based on historical data. Not for nothing, but the Germans didn't JUST bring Tigers to the battlefield.

Just my 2 cents so please take it as such.

On the other hand...
I really wish there was a way to enforce combined arms when purchasing units. I played a guy one time who bought a small handful of tanks and infantry, along side about 20 P-51's. Needless to say he destroyed me with air power. I never played him again or I would have set the AirSections to 0.

Buzzard45 · Post by **Buzzard45** » Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:35 pm

If you don't want to be seen:( Use terrain or smoke or trees. Don't complain that the vis is TOO high. Play the game you both have the same rules. Vis works both ways.

500 yards(10 hexes) visibilty is blizzard where I come from. There are no blizzards in summertime Europe, no sand storms either.

50 hexes is 5km. I can see car from that distance. No reason that I couldn't see a moving tank. A static one in cover? Probably not, until it moved. But surely if it was all alone on a hill or otherwise in the open.

Goblin · Post by **Goblin** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 1:57 am

I believe everything is too easy to spot at long ranges. A tank will fire once, and is instantly seen. An infantry squad, moving in trees, is spotted at a kilometer or more. I stand by my 'low visibility' games. Just another setting that can go either way, as long as a player enjoys it.

Goblin

Buzzard45 · Post by **Buzzard45** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:04 am

A Km is not that far. A group of men running through a lightly wooded area would likely be seen. A slow moving group (2 hexes or less per turn would likely not. Maybe you should try negotiating spotting ability at say 80% instead of 100%. that might satisfiy your low visibilty needs but to shut off all visibilty does not make sense.

Goblin · Post by **Goblin** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:15 am

I am talking about infantry at 30 hexes, moving slowly, and being seen in a solid block of woods by some goofball on a hill. The problem with turning down spotting is that it affects shortrange sighting too. That is where movement should get you spotted, and doesn't if its adjusted down. Then you have infantry walking up to tanks and blasting them. The game needed a larger adjustment for spotting at longer ranges. Another downside to dimming the spotting distance is AT Guns. Twenty shots, still not spotted...:rolleyes:

Goblin- A Goblin thinks its Sissiness at more than 3 hexes...

M4Jess · Post by **M4Jess** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:28 am

Originally posted by Goblin
I believe everything is too easy to spot at long ranges. A tank will fire once, and is instantly seen. An infantry squad, moving in trees, is spotted at a kilometer or more. I stand by my 'low visibility' games. Just another setting that can go either way, as long as a player enjoys it.

Goblin

Ditto...plus...I drive a Sherman! :rolleyes:

Buzzard45 · Post by **Buzzard45** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:49 am

Originally posted by Goblin
if its adjusted down. Then you have infantry walking up to tanks and blasting them. The game needed a larger adjustment for spotting at longer ranges. Another downside to dimming the spotting distance is AT Guns. Twenty shots, still not spotted...:rolleyes:

Okay, it bugs me that a HMG or ATG dissappears after you finally spot it, but I spent a lot of time behind a windshield and you can see things for a long long ways.

Maybe the game needs a spotting characteristic in ranges similar to penetration increments. 0-9, 10-20, 21-30 etc. but to hide everything is less realistic that what the game has built in now.

Jess, I always hide my Shermans until nothing can shoot back. It saves the paint from blistering.

Commander Klank · Post by **Commander Klank** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:12 am

Originally posted by M4 Jess
Ditto...plus...I drive a Sherman! :rolleyes:

And who's fault is that?:D :p LOL

But really thought I thought 30 hexes WAS long range....

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 4:12 am

rbrunsman:

*****"Steps on soapbox."*****

I keep watching people request PBEMs and, invariably, one or the other player says to make the vis 20 to 30 hexes. That's less than 1 mile! I haven't paid enough attention to see if it is the non-German player that mostly asks for this, but it seems a little unfair to take away the German's long range gunnery advantage while keeping the US arty advantage and the Russian hordes advantage.

Also, when vis is over 30, the smoke problem that everyone complains about is mitigated a bit since it takes 2 pops to block LOS then.

I'm all for low vis games, but this 20 to 30 hex range seems a little contrived to me. I think if you want a low vis game you should make it <10, otherwise you should have vis set in the 50s at least.

High vis games are challenging and fun. Give it a try.

******"Steps down from soapbox*******

I couldn't agree more. It looks like one of those things to try to negate the GE strengths of accuracy and punch at greater ranges. That WWII had so many night battles is a complete mystery to me. It's a bit of a pain, even playing against the AI, because the ratio of having to switch it to something reasonable is pretty high. Believe me, as bad as it is, it was far worse before (and of course it was just right many eons ago). I think the premise was that somebody complained that the visi. wasn't Malysia monsoon enough for them. Why the rest of us have to be pained with that I don't understand.

Gary Tatro · Post by **Gary Tatro** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 4:24 am

I do not think that a 20 to 30 hex visibility game is taking away the Germans long ranges sniping advantage what so ever. If it was 5 to 15 I would say yes but 20 to 30 no.

Case and point Bernie and I were playing a H2H game him with Brits and me Germans in late 44. Visibility was 35. I had purchased a platoon of Kingtigers and made it to the high ground by turn 2. He had Comet's and FireFly's and never left them out in the open, always in trees, slopes or in rough. I would pop up over the top of the hill blast away then slink down on the reverse slope and hide. By the end of turn 5 over 15 Firefly's and Comets were burning and I had lost a Puma and a Stug. My King tigers had 10 kills between the four of them. He surrendered after turn 5.

Due to terrain and trees most of these kills were in the 25 to 30 range.

So like I said before, I disagree. Yes on a beautifully clear day with no obstructions you can see for five miles, but if I was a tank driver I would be trying very hard not to be seen. And to say that you can spot a 10 man infantry squad at 3 miles that is moving at five miles (walking speed) an hour through woods is a little far fetched take it from a country boy that used to hunt in his youth.

I can tell you why I like the 20 to 30 visibility.
1) This is the visibliity required to allow air missions.
2) Use of smoke, only need one to bloke LOS. (I like this, :p shhhh don't tell anyone)
3) Gives me a chance against a very good German player during the 40-42 years.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 4:29 am

Visibility is a relative thing, guys. 20-30 hexes is a mile or more. Now for the naked eye that is a long way to look. Not all folks are equipped with the kind of vision that would require.

Yes, you might pick up on some movement but unless you have telescopic equipment or binoculars, firing accurately would be difficult.

The problem here is that in reality vision should have a base, say one mile but units should have better vision than that IF it were built into a tank or a unit was carrying binoculars.

Unfortunately, that was not included in SPWAW. But ideally, in my opinion that is how it should be.

Rbrunsman does have a valid point and either way you go, more or less it is not totally realistic.

It might be fair that is you are equipped with certain German tanks with that capability that the vision be increased.

Wild Bill

Buzzard45 · Post by **Buzzard45** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 5:22 am

Originally posted by Gary Tatro
I do not think that a 20 to 30 hex visibility game is taking away the Germans long ranges sniping advantage what so ever. If it was 5 to 15 I would say yes but 20 to 30 no.
Yes on a beautifully clear day with no obstructions you can see for five miles, but if I was a tank driver I would be trying very hard not to be seen. And to say that you can spot a 10 man infantry squad at 3 miles that is moving at five miles (walking speed) an hour through woods is a little far fetched take it from a country boy that used to hunt in his youth.

I think we are arguing the same side, Gary

BTW 3miles is about 4800 metres or 96 hexes. You have a valid point that no one would see them at that distance. 30hexes = 1500 metres not quite a mile. See a walking man in bush. Not likely, A running squad at half that distance and looking for it, pretty good chance. That's 15 hexes. At 10 hexes= 500 metres, Maybe you'll take a pot shot or send some 50cal rounds. With a 7 power scope and lots of time, maybe you'll hit something.

One hex is my yard and the neigbours to both sides.

VikingNo2 · Post by **VikingNo2** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 5:27 am

My two cent

The magic number is 22 I believe, thats when you can see two hexes deep into woods. I prefer between 15 and 20 I think it balances both the Axis and the Allies. Very high vis games tend to have players buying lots of AA guns(even when both players agree to no Air) or a very low vis game causes its own delimas.

To each his own though, but in future tournaments this should be part of the stand rule package. It changes the game too much not to be. IMHO

Bernie · Post by **Bernie** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:28 am

I think the whole problem originates with the game engine treating spotting as a linear function rather than a logarithmic function (ie: the difference between a cone and a bell shaped funnel). The further away a target is, the narrower the "cone" becomes for spotting it, and the closer it is, the wider the "cone". But, a cone has straight sides (linear). It should have been modeled as sort of a bell curve, still with the narrow "spotting chance" at greater distances, but with the chances widening like a bell mouth the closer you get. Just my $0.02

tracer · Post by **tracer** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:06 am

Originally posted by VikingNo2

The magic number is 22 I believe, thats when you can see two hexes deep into woods.

I've posted 22 as the 'magic number' in the past; recently I learned that its actually 28. But that said, I still prefer games in the 16-22 range (regardless of which country I'm playing)...I'll bow out of any that are set above 30. I'm hoping that CL addresses this limitation (i.e., 'if you can see farther, you can see better too').

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:22 am

Actually unless you are in the desert, terrain will block all but rare occasions of being able to see even 20 hexes...

"Tis with our judgments, so are our watches: no two are quite the same, yet each believes his own"

Who said that, Bosworth?

WB

WB

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:23 am

I'll jump in and say I agree with rb.

I like vis to be around 35 hexes, or below 10. 35 hexes will allow for the long-rangers to gain a definite advantage, as most tanks won't even opfire at that range. Still, all major armies have units with AT capability at that range (for later years).

Buzzard45 · Post by **Buzzard45** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 10:47 am

Originally posted by Wild Bill
Actually unless you are in the desert, terrain will block all but rare occasions of being able to see even 20 hexes...

"Tis with our judgments, so are our watches: no two are quite the same, yet each believes his own"

Who said that, Bosworth?

WB

Thanks Mister Bill.

I think I like yours better but for what its worth:
It is with our judgments as with our watches; no two go just alike, yet each believes his own. Alexander Pope

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:59 pm

When designing I tend to follow Wild Bill's advice of some time ago and use 25 as the average clear weather visability.

What's with the low vis games?

What's with the low vis games?

I agree

A Goblin likes the night

RB I disagree.

Re: RB I disagree.