Soviet Supply

[RedJohn]

Turn 24 in one game.

Turn 24 in another game.

Turn 4 in the first game. (I should add I only have supply issues here because I deployed 1.1m men + a few hundred/thousand AFVs from reserve)

Turn 4 in the 2nd game.

Someone on discord said I should bring this up, as I was helping someone else deal with supply difficulties as the Soviets. The solution to that is, for 41 at least, set every unit on the map to supply priority 4. You can probably micro for marginally better results, but doing so will solve your logistics pretty much entirely. It'll take a bit longer to ensure every unit is green supply, and you'll need to use transports occasionally to ensure an area has good supply, but doing this leads to acceptable results. I think in both games I lost 8,000 trucks to freight in total, which imo is totally digestible losses for how little micro it is.

I post the screenshots to highlight just how little active supply the Soviets consume. The 2nd game I have an OOB of 5.4 million men, consuming 2,000 tons of supplies. Every single unit, at turn 24 just before blizzard, has fully green supply. I am not well read on the Soviet logistics of 41, but to my knowledge it was... less than stellar, to say the least, right?

Really this post is just to see if it's intended. 'cuz in every soviet game I can have every on map unit sit supply priority 4, on refit, and not really feel any logistical burdens.

[AlbertN]

I am astonished by 'supply need' of 2000 in T24!

[jubjub]

Nerf Soviet supply big time and nerf German morale, and the game would be a lot more realistic.

[Joel Billings]

The Soviet supply issues in the early war are factored into the special artillery ammo rules for their units. I'm not aware of major supply shortages on the Soviet side, but I'm open to new info.

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I am astonished by 'supply need' of 2000 in T24!

That is because if you set your whole army on supply priority 4 (as I always do for Soviets), it will send them extra supply. The extra supply accumulates over time, so that the extra that they got on turn 23 means that they then "need" less new supply on turn 24, because a lot of their need has been fulfilled with the stuff they were already sent on previous turns.

[AlbertN]

I see, in conjunction of playing static defence that makes them well stocked for winter too - I see.

And @JubJub I do not see why German morale should be nerfed. Actually I'd have it drop less over time for the mid-late war.

Edit:
To me it seems off that the Soviets can get so much well off with supplies that they hardly need stuff for what I assume is an army at least so large as the German. And whilst they can be used to the cold temperatures to various levels it's not that they disregard hindrances or slowing downs.

The more I look at the 2000 as need the more I am gobsmacked.

[Jango32]

I think that in terms of production the Soviets are fine as they are in the game right now, but it may be in the realm of distributing supplies, fuel and ammunition to units that may be too easy for them to achieve right now with their current truck inventory.

[jubjub]

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I am astonished by 'supply need' of 2000 in T24!

That is because if you set your whole army on supply priority 4 (as I always do for Soviets), it will send them extra supply. The extra supply accumulates over time, so that the extra that they got on turn 23 means that they then "need" less new supply on turn 24, because a lot of their need has been fulfilled with the stuff they were already sent on previous turns.

Color me skeptical that the Soviets were swimming in supplies in the dead of winter.

The Soviet supply issues in the early war are factored into the special artillery ammo rules for their units. I'm not aware of major supply shortages on the Soviet side, but I'm open to new info.

Quite the opposite. The Soviets benefit from an unhistorical and massive supply surplus. They can pretty much go on endless offensives without being heavily affected by supply issues. On defense, they drown in supplies.

Instead of artificially gimping artillery, why not just reduce the Soviet supply capacity in '41?

[jubjub]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I see, in conjunction of playing static defence that makes them well stocked for winter too - I see.

And @JubJub I do not see why German morale should be nerfed. Actually I'd have it drop less over time for the mid-late war.

They were only human, and the superiority of their rank and file over the Soviets is a myth. I'd like to see the game function with near equal morale on both sides. The way I justify the current disparity in my head is that they had superior officers, otherwise the superhuman status of the Germans would drive me crazy.

IMO, if the Germans are ever too strong, the first instinct should be to knock their NM. For example, the artillery change was a very good one that underscores the advantage in artillery the Germans had early on. If the Germans become too strong bc of this, knock 5 morale off their NM in '41.

[DeletedUser44]

Historically, as I have recently learned, the Soviets had massive supply transportation and distribution issues through 1941.

Nigel Askey has a good 25 pages devoted to "Supply Distribution Efficiency", which includes analyzing vehicle production, transport capacity, avg distance moved per day, ...

For example, from 1927 thru end of 1941, Soviet Union only produced:

- a total of 124,700 automobiles
- a total of 1,125,503 trucks

(and this was for a 1939 population of over 100 million people)

His conclusions were (through 4-7-1941) -

"... if a similar Soviet and German division were fighting at the same distance from their respective supply sources, had the same amount of supplies available in their respective supply sources, were deployed in the same type of terrain and the roads were in the same condition, then the German division would normally receive around 4.9 times as much fuel and ammunition per days as the Soviet division"

The ratio drops to 3.1 through December 1941. (3.4 if you factor in air transport capacity)

Also in considering German forces were operating 2-8 times further from their supply sources than their Soviet counterparts; if, on avg, were 3.4 times further from than their major supply sources, then the amount of supplies received would have been very similar.

Then considering total relative total supply demand on each army, the German forces required only 68% of the supplies needed by the Soviet Army (as a whole). Additionally, from 22nd June thru 31st Dec 1941, the avg German ground forces supply lift was 198% that of the Soviets.

The German forces invading the Soviet Union contained over 600,000 light transports and trucks. Of those, 450,000 were "cargo" trucks. In comparison, the entire Soviet armed forces only contained 273k motor vehicles, of those only 193,200 "cargo" trucks.

----

The Red Army started the war with an incredible 61 tank divisions and 31 mechanized divisions. It is no wonder that most of these divisions had barely enough motorized transport to move at all, let alone sustain prolong combat operations.

----

Eventually, the situation dramatically improves for the Soviet Union, especially after receiving massive shipments of Lend-Lease vehicles, as well as their own industrial rapidly moving to full war-time production. But this did not happen through the end of 1941.

[panzer51]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

The Soviet supply issues in the early war are factored into the special artillery ammo rules for their units. I'm not aware of major supply shortages on the Soviet side, but I'm open to new info.

Lack of 37mm and 85mm ammo for AA guns was a major issue early on in 1941.

[Joel Billings]

AFAIK, in the game the Soviets do not have an abundance of trucks in 1941. However they are retreating onto their depots and are mostly supplied via horse due to their working rail lines.

[ShaggyHiK]

What difference does it make how many trucks were produced during the war? The USSR in the 30s was the most developed automobile country in the world.

The trucks produced before the war were huge. Yes, there were few trucks in the Soviet army at the beginning of the war, but trucks were mobilized from industry in favor of the military.

[ShaggyHiK]

In the USSR, there were problems with the production of ammunition, mainly associated with the loss of the industry of gunpowder and explosives in the occupied territory.
Also at the beginning of the war there was a problem with the availability of anti-tank ammunition for some types of guns.

[AlbertN]

Just to make sure then - the number of Supplies Needed is only via truck and rules out what goes via horse?

Still a 2000 supply need in some fall turn means either a non existant army ... or a non consuming army.
If they're at supply 4, supposedly the troops eat and drink and all and then try to replenish what they used.

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Just to make sure then - the number of Supplies Needed is only via truck and rules out what goes via horse?

Still a 2000 supply need in some fall turn means either a non existant army ... or a non consuming army.
If they're at supply 4, supposedly the troops eat and drink and all and then try to replenish what they used.

You are misunderstanding, the Soviet troops do consume supply, it is just that in previous turns they have been stocked with more than the notional "need." So now they don't "need" much to stay at the level that they actually need. They have a built up stock of supply. If for a few turns you put supply priority on level 2 or 3, then the amount shown as "needed" in the logistics report would go up, because they would run down their stocked up supplies.



Something like this is the typical state for a unit that has been on supply priority 4 and sitting safely in a location near a depot where it can easily receive supply. See, it has more supply (113) than its "need." So this turn it "needs" less in order to be able to meet its consumption while staying at 100% of its needed level. But that will change as soon as you drop the supply priority (if you do) and it runs down its supply stock a bit. Or it will drop as soon as you get into combat. And then the "need" will go up.

In fact, it is similar to how all the German units start out on turn 1. They all start with more supply in stock than they "need." So the "need" on turn 2 is then low. However, if they then don't get much supply on subsequent turns, then the "need" will rise.