LOS Question

[FelixCulpa]

The image is from the opening of the Arracourt scenario.

The 37th Tk Bn is spotted and identified, hence partial info available. Hide factor reduced to 1 from 4.

Who did the spotting and identification?

The 110 PzG R is behind Blanere (Obst 60) so it was not this or the units behind it.

Conditions are overcast, morning.

So that leaves the 1127 VG R - range 4 hexes, Recon 69, Raw Recon 197

If someone could provide the calculation that would be appreciated.

thx

[FelixCulpa]

Adding Notes as I figure stuff out.
Best LOS for 37 Tk Bn is 12. So 12% of the spotting unit's recon points will be applied to this hex (ie 37 tk Bn location)

1127 degradation, 4 hex, /8

[FelixCulpa]

notes from the manual

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Just by looking at your screenshot, I'd say that the 37TkBtn is mainly spotted by the German units of the 1127th regiment. The village Blanere sure leads to a reduction of the recon points being cast from the north, but some points will still get through.

Note that you can check your exact LOS% on the target hex (see my explanation below).

The main factor why the Germans can see the 37 Tk Btn is that the Tk Btn is positioned in open fields (hide 4!) so you need to have only a few recon points in their hex to spot them. Due to the good weather and the lack of LOS-obstruction (there is just open ground between the 1227. and the Tk Btn) the Germans get more than sufficient recon points on the hex to "partially" spot the US tanks. If the tanks were positioned in the village or the woods, things would look much different!

My attempt to explain Recon in Decisive Campaings: Ardennes


Each unit generates raw recon points according to its size (most combat individuals generate 1 recon point, support individuals usually don't).

In the hex of a unit itself, 100% of its generated raw recon points are applied. Only a percentage of the raw recon points are cast out to other hexes, according to distance, weather/light conditions and terrain. TIP: Select a hex, switch to move mode (doesn't work in inspect mode for some reason) and hover over other hexes. There is a place in the bottom right corner of the UI (left of the "HEX" tab/register) where you will see the exact LOS value and the effect of weather/light (presented as a fraction; so /2 = 50% LOS, e.g.) and obstruction (presented as a %-value). The LOS% value tells you how many of the raw recon points generated by the units in the selected hex are applied to the hex you're hovering over. This is also represented by the color of the eye symbols (if you have switched "LOS overlay" on).

Your final raw recon points in any hex are the sum of the recon points of all your units in hexes that have at least 1% LOS on that hex.

The game then translates raw recon points into effective recon points. If you have a huge raw recon point value in a hex, your effective recon points will be much lower and vice versa. This helps smaller units to spot better, while it gives diminishing recon returns for huge troop concentrations. You can get detailed information on your raw and effective recon points in a hex if you hover over the Recon value in the hex-information window (the recon points shown here are effective recon points).

The effective recon points are then compared to the hide value of any enemy units present in the hex. The main factor here is the terrain itself (an open plain gives only few hide points, urban terrain many). Very small or experienced enemy units get a bonus on their hide value (and vice versa). If your effective recon points exceed an enemy unit's hide points, you get to see a counter on the map (thus preventing an ambush if you move into the hex). However, in order to gain more information and see the actual elements in the enemy unit, your recon needs to exceed the enemy's higde value by a larger margin. The larger the difference, the more accurate your information is.

WHY DOES IT MATTER? In my experience, you can only hit enemy elements that you've spotted. So if you just see an enemy counter but have not identified any elements within that counter, it's totally futile (and a big waste of ammo) to fire your artillery on that hex. You need to see the actual combat elements! Also, the hide value affects the "cover points" an element gets in combat. I'm not entirely sure how that works, it seems to affect target selection (so that you vulnerable units are less likely to be targeted if you have high cover points). Last but not least, if you unknowignly move into a hex with enemy presence, the enemy will get two ambush combat rounds on you (200% attack power, you don't get any entrenchment).

NOTE: The spotting status (spotted/identified) doesn't strike me as very important. It helps to keep units you've spotted on your map and affects cover points. But it does not make a unit easier to spot (this is written rather confusingly in the manual).
NOTE: Recon points are updated live (i.e. during movements, not only at the start/end of the turn). EDIT: I think the game uses/remembers your maximum recon points on a hex during any turn. I.e. you can move units on without losing their recon points? (If this wasn't the case, the order in which you move your units would become highly important)
NOTE: You can quickly gain recon points in a hex by attacking into it (ca. +5 Recon points per combat round). Often it's a good idea to first attack with a probe to spot enemy elements and only then rain down your artillery.
NOTE: Spotting in this system is not two-sided. It occurs rather often that you can see the enemy but the enemy can't see you (or vice versa).
RULE OF THUMB: If your recon value in a hex exceeds the hexes' hide value, you usually know if there is an enemy in the hex or not.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

By the way, does anyone know what the "eligible stacking" value is? I can't find it anywhere. Is it specific per terrain type or universal?

[JacquesDeLalaing]

ORIGINAL: FelixCulpa

Best LOS for 37 Tk Bn is 12. So 12% of the spotting unit's recon points will be applied to this hex (ie 37 tk Bn location)

I assume that this comes from the clostest unit of the 1127th regiment. At a distance of 4 hexes with no obstruction, the LOS should be /8 (=12%) under overcast conditions. As the unit seems pretty large and generates quite a lot of recon points, this alone would probably suffice to at least spot the tank battalion.

But note that other german units (with smaller LOS%) may still contribute recon points. E.g. for the unit north of Blaniere, one would expect a LOS of about 10% (distance 3 overcast = /4 = 25%; *0.4 due to LOS-obstruction by village Blanere). So the LOS% is not much smaller than that of the 1127 unit.

[Octavian]

In the end all these calculations are extremely intransparent for the player.
You need to be a math student or a processor to make use of it.
Let me give you an example: There is literally no way to find out,EASILY - and without 10 minutes pondering and calculating - whether you are seen by your enemy in other than an obvious situation. Nor is there any intuitive way to tell how small a unit (and how experienced, and weather, and hex and and and) could be, that you yourself are NOT seeing in your vicinity. Don´t get me wrong: All these figures may make sense, but only if I as the player have them presented in a way that I can - same as a commander in field - have a glue about whom I would see or would be hidden in my vicinity. If I am looking into a light forest as a commander, I would definitely have at least a slight idea, that a whole tank battalion couldnßt hide there without me seeing it, or vice versa, that it would be impossible for me in that fog to see like say 50 guys with mortars in that same forest. And in some way, this "clue" must be translated to some figures in the game, that I can make an informed decision. I can´t see right now how that should be possible with your three pages of calculations. Sorry.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

ORIGINAL: Octavian
Let me give you an example: There is literally no way to find out,EASILY - and without 10 minutes pondering and calculating - whether you are seen by your enemy in other than an obvious situation.

To be honest, I'd consider this to be a very good thing!

Nor is there any intuitive way to tell how small a unit (and how experienced, and weather, and hex and and and) could be, that you yourself are NOT seeing in your vicinity.

This is also a good thing in my book. The more uncertainty there is, the better.

Don´t get me wrong: All these figures may make sense, but only if I as the player have them presented in a way that I can - same as a commander in field - have a glue about whom I would see or would be hidden in my vicinity. [...] I can´t see right now how that should be possible with your three pages of calculations. Sorry.

Note that I've given you a very detailed explanation here. It's a good read to get a basic understanding. In the game, however, I stick to much simpler rules of thumb. My best tip is: if your recon value in a hex exceeds the hexes' hide value, you can pretty reliably tell if there is an enemy unit in the hex or not.* That's as simple as it gets, really. I just wished there was an overlay for it.

I'm for one am happy that this game tries to do things a bit differently. There are plenty of wargames out there that do the same things over and over again. I love that DC:Ardennes embraces the "incomplete information" aspect.
--------------
* In very rare cases where your recon is only very marginally greater than the terrain's hide value, and where enemy units are very experienced and/or small, you might still not see the enemy.

[FelixCulpa]

Hi Jacques,
Thanks for your very useful reply, some very useful insights!

re eligible stack points
p. 105

Total Stacking in the hex is listed in the Hex Stats.

If attacking from one hex, the eligible stackpoints for the attacker is 100. Anything beyond this is considered overstacking.
The defender can have up to 200 stacking points in the hex, anything over this is overstacking and has penalties.

Hope I have this correct and is useful to you.

[Octavian]

And here comes an idea, how to soften that problem:
It´s taken from another guys comment in another thread. He suggested:
"Recon overlay: color hexes in which your effective recon score supersedes the hexes' hide score yellow (if +20 green)."

Something like this might really be helpfull. There is still the problem of how to calculate all the other factors (Size of unit, experience...) into this concept.
Factors that in the end make the difference in spotting or not spotting a unit.
All these discussions show: this is a major problem, that should be tackled by our friends, the designers, to make this game really shine!

[JacquesDeLalaing]

ORIGINAL: Octavian

And here comes an idea, how to soften that problem:
It´s taken from another guys comment in another thread. He suggested:
"Recon overlay: color hexes in which your effective recon score supersedes the hexes' hide score yellow (if +20 green)."
w: this is a major problem, that should be tackled by our friends, the designers, to make this game really shine!

That guy was me. [;)]

[Octavian]

[/quote]

Note that I've given you a very detailed explanation here. It's a good read to get a basic understanding. In the game, however, I stick to much simpler rules of thumb. My best tip is: if your recon value in a hex exceeds the hexes' hide value, you can pretty reliably tell if there is an enemy unit in the hex or not.* That's as simple as it gets, really. I just wished there was an overlay for it.

* In very rare cases where your recon is only very marginally greater than the terrain's hide value, and where enemy units are very experienced and/or small, you might still not see the enemy.

Hey Jacques, I see your point, but I´d say, what is the point of having a dozen factors, when you can´t make sense out of them as a player and have to break them down to two figures, that you have to look up for in every damn hex in a very fiddly way? And - next question - how can you know, or at least have a clue, if YOU are seen by the enemy in any other than an obvious situation?

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Over time, I'm pretty sure that I will develop a feeling for the recon aspect. But an overlay would indeed be nice.

How can you know if you are spotted? You only know for certain once fire is coming your way. But as a general rule, I would proceed like this:

1. First, I would consider the positions from where an enemy might see my unit (has LOS% onto my hex). I don't do this by checking any values. I read the map! That hill over there! That village in front of me.

2. Next, I check these hexes (locations of potential enemy spotters) according to the rule of thumb mentioned above. Can I tell reliably that there is no enemy in those hexes? It's easy to tell if it's an open plain. But villages, towns and woods are very suspicious.

3. If I cannot rule out enemy presence, I assume it and act accordingly. If terrain covers me, I might be able to slip by unseen (but I never know if I was indeed unseen...). Or I might increase my recon efforts (move units closer, play a recon command card) against the likely enemy position (until my recon value in the enemy hex exceeds the hide value by a reliable margin of +5 or +10). Or, judging from the overall operational situation, I might deem enemy presence unlikely or not dangerous and just carry on. This also depends on how much of a threat the enemy position might become (is the enemy position close enough to target the road with ranged intercept fire - artillery/tanks/ATguns? Can it threaten my supply line if I pass by? etc). Also, I try not to offer my enemy any easy victims (I try to end my units' turns in terrain that provides cover).

So in general, if you want to know for certain if you've been seen, you need to know if the enemy is at places from where he can see you. There is no other way.

The wooded hills in the Ardennes offer quite nasty opportunities to see without being seen. But then again there is a 50 power points minimum requirement for units, so you can't spam tiny units all over the map. Also, standing on a wooded hill far from roads is not safe either (supply problems, threat of being cut off...).

PS: Always move on a hex by hex basis. Recon info is updated with every single move!

[JacquesDeLalaing]

ORIGINAL: FelixCulpa

Hi Jacques,
Thanks for your very useful reply, some very useful insights!

re eligible stack points
p. 105

Total Stacking in the hex is listed in the Hex Stats.

If attacking from one hex, the eligible stackpoints for the attacker is 100. Anything beyond this is considered overstacking.
The defender can have up to 200 stacking points in the hex, anything over this is overstacking and has penalties.

Hope I have this correct and is useful to you.

Thanks! I still wonder though which stacking value is used for determining hide boni/mali (if you exceed the stacking limit in a hex, your units get a malus on their hide points...)? I suppose it's that of the defender (200)?

[Novaliz]

Is there a way to see the raw recon points of my unit? I can not find a value.

[FelixCulpa]

Novaliz, Manual p. 31, A "mouse over for detailed info"

Jacques, it is a fair question. The idea of "Hide" points is a defensive action, so does the 200 point base apply? It is not unusual to exceed 100 stack points, but 200?

p. 71 quote ... if total stack points in the Hex are lower than one third ...

Does it make sense to have 100/33 or 200/66?

Full unit info is revealed when recon points are greater than 80, is the presumption 80/100? Of course, there maybe no relationship!

In Arracourt, I stacked all 1127 VG Regt in one hex for 147 SP. Is this desirable in the game? I presume it is not a goal of the designer to have towers of units!

My guess, at the moment, is the base value is 100.

[Oberst_Klink]

ORIGINAL: FelixCulpa

Novaliz, Manual p. 31, A "mouse over for detailed info"

Jacques, it is a fair question. The idea of "Hide" points is a defensive action, so does the 200 point base apply? It is not unusual to exceed 100 stack points, but 200?

p. 71 quote ... if total stack points in the Hex are lower than one third ...

Does it make sense to have 100/33 or 200/66?

Full unit info is revealed when recon points are greater than 80, is the presumption 80/100? Of course, there maybe no relationship!

In Arracourt, I stacked all 1127 VG Regt in one hex for 147 SP. Is this desirable in the game? I presume it is not a goal of the designer to have towers of units!

My guess, at the moment, is the base value is 100.

Overstacking is an invitation for disaster. Artillery strikes or even probe attacks on overstacked hexes can turn out quite unpleasant.

Klink, Oberst

[JacquesDeLalaing]

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

ORIGINAL: FelixCulpa

Novaliz, Manual p. 31, A "mouse over for detailed info"

Jacques, it is a fair question. The idea of "Hide" points is a defensive action, so does the 200 point base apply? It is not unusual to exceed 100 stack points, but 200?

p. 71 quote ... if total stack points in the Hex are lower than one third ...

Does it make sense to have 100/33 or 200/66?

Full unit info is revealed when recon points are greater than 80, is the presumption 80/100? Of course, there maybe no relationship!

In Arracourt, I stacked all 1127 VG Regt in one hex for 147 SP. Is this desirable in the game? I presume it is not a goal of the designer to have towers of units!

My guess, at the moment, is the base value is 100.

Overstacking is an invitation for disaster. Artillery strikes or even probe attacks on overstacked hexes can turn out quite unpleasant.

Klink, Oberst

How come? Afaik each element still only gets one attack? So it doesn't matter that much how many elements are in the targeted hex?

You do get a malus if there are too few enemy elements (max attack = 3, once an enemy element has been attacked three times, a malus sets in for the attacker from the fourth attack onwards). But I don't think there is a bonus for too many enemy elements? The only thing I can think of is that units in overstacked hexes get a malus on their hide value, which might affect cover points (enemy target selection)? But maybe I am missing something?

EDIT: I tested it. There is an overstack malus on hitpoints (units in overstacked hexes become more vulnerable). But the effect seems to be rather minor. I tested it on a hex with 392 stacking points for a malus of -49% hitpoints.

[Novaliz]

Novaliz, Manual p. 31, A "mouse over for detailed info"

There I can see the recon points of the hex. I was thinking about clicking a unit to see how many recon points a unit has. Or am I thinking it wrong?

[FelixCulpa]

Hi Novaliz,
It is easy to be misled by the manual, it is a diabolically poor manual! Sorry V et al, but it is!

The hex stats report what effective recon (spotting) points your units have in a hex. It has little to do with your individual units. Notice that in hexes your units occupy, the "Best LOS" is 100, and generally, so is the adjacent hex, i.e., you have perfect LOS on the hex you occupy and the one beside it! So don't look at the recon factor in isolation. Increasing the "Best LOS" factor is a method of increasing your recon/spotting on that hex. As does combat etc.

Most units do have "Recon Points" as such, in the bottom bar, select one of your units and check the selected troop (troop means unit in this game!) stats, generally, recon point is 1.

Rather than "Recon", think of this factor as Spotting, this may help you understand the factor.

LOS has range, which can be modified by weather, hills, forest, etc and has "Best LOS" as its qualitative factor (how well you can spot the en).

Also note, that you can only guess what "Recon" points the en has on you! Which is fair enough.

Hope that helps, and I'm sure there is more to it! Anyway, that is my understanding so far!