Are the Turks borked?

[Tanaka]

I've tried everything with these guys over 3 PBEM games. If the Russians commit all of their mountain troops there is nothing I can do to stop them. They slice through the Turkish troops like butter. The Turkish morale is terrible that only gets worse and forget any offensive moves as everything is 0-3 or 0-4 odds even with HQ attached. I've put everything into trenches and replacements of destroyed troops and have nothing left for anything else. Infantry weapons is last and lagging along. Nevermind that you have to defend the entire coastline from invasions.

What am I missing? Tips? Opinions? Working as they should or too weak? Does anyone else think they are too weak as I do? In history they lasted most of the war but I just don't see that ever happening in this game. Is this why almost every CP player goes for a Russia first strategy? Because that is the only option to win? Is this a balance issue? Thoughts?

[Chernobyl]

In my opinion the only thing the Turks can try to do on the Russian front is delay and know when to pull back at the optimal moments. There's no way for the Turks to dislodge the Russians and there's no way to stand firm on defense if the Russians play correctly.

Turkey is basically hoping Russia collapses before they do.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Yeah, Tanaka...actually whats happening in our match and NE Anatolia mirrors what happened historically. Usually Trapazon and Ezerum will fall by mid 1915. There are two main reasons.

1) Russia's supply net extending into Ottoman territory.
2) General Yudenich and the quality of the Mt Infantry.

After the two above mentioned Ottoman towns are taken though, its rather hard for the Russian's to go any deeper in as long as the Ottomans can keep a line, except if the Russians send considerably more units and an HQ down there.
(The implications for Russian Poland can be dire for the Russian side if Russia sends more forces to the Caucasus.)

Also..it is extremely important for the CP to take Nish in Serbia as quick as possible, Not only to open up the land convoy route from AH to OE...but to operate additional troops if needed to their ally the Ottomans.

When I play the CP...with the Ottomans I do resist in NE Anatolia as best as I can but will form a line at important junctions in the interior..knowing that the Russians will have supply issues because of the poor roads and terrain there.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

In my opinion the only thing the Turks can try to do on the Russian front is delay and know when to pull back at the optimal moments. There's no way for the Turks to dislodge the Russians and there's no way to stand firm on defense if the Russians play correctly.

Turkey is basically hoping Russia collapses before they do.

Yes exactly. Ok glad to know I am not the only one haha.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Yeah, Tanaka...actually whats happening in our match and NE Anatolia mirrors what happened historically. Usually Trapazon and Ezerum will fall by mid 1915. There are two main reasons.

1) Russia's supply net extending into Ottoman territory.
2) General Yudenich and the quality of the Mt Infantry.

After the two above mentioned Ottoman towns are taken though, its rather hard for the Russian's to go any deeper in as long as the Ottomans can keep a line, except if the Russians send considerably more units and an HQ down there.
(The implications for Russian Poland can be dire for the Russian side if Russia sends more forces to the Caucasus.)

Also..it is extremely important for the CP to take Nish in Serbia as quick as possible, Not only to open up the land convoy route from AH to OE...but to operate additional troops if needed to their ally the Ottomans.

When I play the CP...with the Ottomans I do resist in NE Anatolia as best as I can but will form a line at important junctions in the interior..knowing that the Russians will have supply issues because of the poor roads and terrain there.

Ok sounds like you guys say everything is working as it should historically. Did the CP ever connect to Ottomans through Serbia? Or was it through Romania? I did not think they did? Thanks for the tips and interesting discussion...

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Absolutely the Central Powers were all connected...from late 1915 on, and Serbia finally collapsed by mid 1916. (The remnant Serbs fleeing to Corfu and Salonika).

Nish, Serbia...is in my opinion one of the top CP objectives in the first year(s)of this conflict. Even if Serbia is still in the fray with Uskub as the capital..if the CP can push a corridor and hold Nish...well they are all connected.
This is why in our earlier matches I fought so hard to hold Nish..and that even precipitated that old Bulgarian Gambit deal that we made public..and got fixed! [8D]

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Absolutely the Central Powers were all connected...from late 1915 on, and Serbia finally collapsed by mid 1916. (The remnant Serbs fleeing to Corfu and Salonika).

Nish, Serbia...is in my opinion one of the top CP objectives in the first year(s)of this conflict. Even if Serbia is still in the fray with Uskub as the capital..if the CP can push a corridor and hold Nish...well they are all connected.
This is why in our earlier matches I fought so hard to hold Nish..and that even precipitated that old Bulgarian Gambit deal that we made public..and got fixed! [8D]

Ok gotcha but did the other powers ever send troops into Ottoman Empire fronts? Thought it was just military advisors?

[OldCrowBalthazor]

There were regiments broken up into companies sent from Austria-Hungary and Germany. They were spread out on all fronts to bolster the Ottomans. In TE Lawrence's book, Seven Pillars of Wisdom..there is an account of Austro-Hungarian machine gun companies that stood their ground as the Turks broke during Allenby's advance on Damascus.

Big formations..no. But its possible to do here...but thats a hard decision for the CP to make if things are hot in Europe.

[Tanaka]

So the Turks quit on me in 1917. With most of the country still intact...

Has anyone ever gotten them to last the whole war as historical?

Asking for a friend...lol

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

So the Turks quit on me in 1917. With most of the country still intact...

Has anyone ever gotten them to last the whole war as historical?

Asking for a friend...lol

Yes... many times, including a few where I ended up losing the war anyway.

The most important thing the Central Powers must do to support the Ottoman Empire is take Nish in Serbia and open up a link including the rail line and land convoy through there and Bulgaria to Istanbul. This needs to be done by the end of 1915 at the latest.

Another thing is to get into trench research asap.

The Ottomans can afford to lose the two NM cities in NE Anatolia to the Russians. Its fairly easy to stop them because of supply and terrain from going much further unless the Russians put a lot of effort into pushing further into an area they can not extract from easy if a disaster looms in Poland, etc.

What the Ottomans can not survive is losing the NM cities in Palestine/Syria and Medina. At all costs that's where they must be strongest. If not defended well there...its very easy with a small UK army group on a shoe string to take it all down over the course of 2 years.

The downfall of the Central Powers almost always begins with the Ottomans collapsing first. It may be a slow slide to purgatory...but its irresistible.

A major effort HAS to be made to push Serbia down to Uskub and Albania. Nish is the key, as is the mine next to that alternative Capitol. Take Nish, clear the area of Entente forces..open up the rail line to Bulgaria...and the Ottomans are not isolated anymore.

The Central Powers have to ALL be linked. It's the only way to save The Ottoman Empire.

[Bavre]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

...
What the Ottomans can not survive is losing the NM cities in Palestine/Syria and Medina. At all costs that's where they must be strongest. If not defended well there...its very easy with a small UK army group on a shoe string to take it all down over the course of 2 years.
...

This also opens up the opportunity to push a CP unit off the partisan hexes in Arabia for the Entente. The parisans that spawn are not really of any consequence in that situation, but the event triggers another big NM hit against the OE.

[archmache]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Yeah, Tanaka...actually whats happening in our match and NE Anatolia mirrors what happened historically. Usually Trapazon and Ezerum will fall by mid 1915. There are two main reasons.

1) Russia's supply net extending into Ottoman territory.
2) General Yudenich and the quality of the Mt Infantry.

After the two above mentioned Ottoman towns are taken though, its rather hard for the Russian's to go any deeper in as long as the Ottomans can keep a line, except if the Russians send considerably more units and an HQ down there.
(The implications for Russian Poland can be dire for the Russian side if Russia sends more forces to the Caucasus.)

Also..it is extremely important for the CP to take Nish in Serbia as quick as possible, Not only to open up the land convoy route from AH to OE...but to operate additional troops if needed to their ally the Ottomans.

When I play the CP...with the Ottomans I do resist in NE Anatolia as best as I can but will form a line at important junctions in the interior..knowing that the Russians will have supply issues because of the poor roads and terrain there.

Yup .. taking Nish and knocking Serbia out is crucial! Given good AH and GE pushes into Russia Ottomans may be able to take a break in the Caucasus to stem the attacks from the Middle East. It's like a massive macro game of chess / chicken. If GE pushes hard in the west then UK will have to devote resources to Northern France or if GE pushes into sea UK will have to devote resources to the sea. Basically what I am saying is there are ways to support Ottomans other than just the MPP convoy. Ottomans cannot defend all front - strategic or tactical retreats to better positions are mandatory imo.

[OldCrowBalthazor]

ORIGINAL: archmache

Yup .. taking Nish and knocking Serbia out is crucial! Given good AH and GE pushes into Russia Ottomans may be able to take a break in the Caucasus to stem the attacks from the Middle East. It's like a massive macro game of chess / chicken. If GE pushes hard in the west then UK will have to devote resources to Northern France or if GE pushes into sea UK will have to devote resources to the sea. Basically what I am saying is there are ways to support Ottomans other than just the MPP convoy. Ottomans cannot defend all front - strategic or tactical retreats to better positions are mandatory imo.

Yep these are great points. The nuances of this game and the push and tug are brilliantly modeled by Bill and Hubert. There's a lot under the hood that the CP player needs to utilize to keep the Ottomans viable. Its hard...as it should be. I would have to say..if the Entente player neglects the Middle East for too long, they can end up having it served up in their lap at Suez. [:D]

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

So the Turks quit on me in 1917. With most of the country still intact...

Has anyone ever gotten them to last the whole war as historical?

Asking for a friend...lol

Yes... many times, including a few where I ended up losing the war anyway.

The most important thing the Central Powers must do to support the Ottoman Empire is take Nish in Serbia and open up a link including the rail line and land convoy through there and Bulgaria to Istanbul. This needs to be done by the end of 1915 at the latest.

Another thing is to get into trench research asap.

The Ottomans can afford to lose the two NM cities in NE Anatolia to the Russians. Its fairly easy to stop them because of supply and terrain from going much further unless the Russians put a lot of effort into pushing further into an area they can not extract from easy if a disaster looms in Poland, etc.

What the Ottomans can not survive is losing the NM cities in Palestine/Syria and Medina. At all costs that's where they must be strongest. If not defended well there...its very easy with a small UK army group on a shoe string to take it all down over the course of 2 years.

The downfall of the Central Powers almost always begins with the Ottomans collapsing first. It may be a slow slide to purgatory...but its irresistible.

A major effort HAS to be made to push Serbia down to Uskub and Albania. Nish is the key, as is the mine next to that alternative Capitol. Take Nish, clear the area of Entente forces..open up the rail line to Bulgaria...and the Ottomans are not isolated anymore.

The Central Powers have to ALL be linked. It's the only way to save The Ottoman Empire.

I hear you and thanks!

This game is so much harder for me than WAW as Axis and it is a nut I just seem to not be able to crack. But with artillery being nerfed and subs surviving I am doing better than before all things considered...

Taking Nish is easier said than done. I have been pressing and pressing with everything I've got as AH even took the Serbia first decision. I am finally getting close to Nish and then bam the Turks give up lol.

As far as the Turks I maxed out trench research as soon as I could but they were still overpowered as I did not get them to infantry 1 soon enough nor have enough units to swap out for upgrades.

What the Ottomans can not survive is losing the NM cities in Palestine/Syria and Medina. At all costs that's where they must be strongest. If not defended well there...its very easy with a small UK army group on a shoe string to take it all down over the course of 2 years.

This part is easier said than done. I could spare nothing from the Russian front because I was being mauled there...

Not saying none of this can't be done I just have never been able to figure out how to do it with all the Turks have to deal with this game really get my goat haha!

I think this time around I was so spooked by all of the coastal invasions you did the last games that I spent too much on detachments covering the coast.

Back to the drawing board for me again!


I do have one important question for all:

Is a Russia first strategy the only option for CP to win in this game? Have you won going West in a MP game?

I have not seen any victorious CP players go west in MP games displayed online?

[OldCrowBalthazor]

As CP I always do France First for a variety of reasons. Yeah this last year Russia First got popular. The Montenegren Gambit tests revealed a lot with this strategy. Also its harder to pull off a strong France First...it has to be devastating in 1914 with a strong follow through in 1915. It can be done successfully. I have done it many times...and its been done to me.

Personally..and this is just me..doing a successful Schlieffen Plan takes lots of planning each and every turn up to the point it freezes up the first winter. Its what the Russians may do that determines if the France first follow through in 1915 can wreck France.

I never do the Russia First out of personal preference btw...I want to try to make it work, which it only half did historically. Check out Dazo's "Schlieffen Plan" in the War Room here on the forum.

[8D]

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

As CP I always do France First for a variety of reasons. Yeah this last year Russia First got popular. The Montenegren Gambit tests revealed a lot with this strategy. Also its harder to pull off a strong France First...it has to be devastating in 1914 with a strong follow through in 1915. It can be done successfully. I have done it many times...and its been done to me.

Personally..and this is just me..doing a successful Schlieffen Plan takes lots of planning each and every turn up to the point it freezes up the first winter. Its what the Russians may do that determines if the France first follow through in 1915 can wreck France.

I never do the Russia First out of personal preference btw...I want to try to make it work, which it only half did historically. Check out Dazo's "Schlieffen Plan" in the War Room here on the forum.

[8D]

Ok that explains it then good to know! I need to watch you play someone as CP!

Btw CP still strong. I picked a DEC that came up that I never used before. Its asks for an armistice once OE NM is low. It ends the war quickly but I can't enter Turkey or used the straits! When you say no to the DEC..you have to conquer it. The Entente cant enter Turkish territory and I can't move the Russian Black Sea fleet into the Med or Atlantic now. Didn't know this.

Check the NM scores of all the countries. All of them are sinking from exhaustion. German did not lose much like I thought from O.E. collapse. Try to save Bulgaria if you can. Serbia is f'd up..no money once you have the mine by Nish..just a trickle from France..and I am running out of Entente troops to send there for awhile.

Hang in there..its epic. Germany has problems but so does everyone else.

OOOHHHHHH so that's what happened! I thought it strange and sudden! Did not know about his event!

So what do we do with our units still stuck there? My Bulgarians suddenly stuck in Syria are like what? Lol

Hope you don't mind me posting your message here but this makes more sense to me now! I had no idea there was an Armistice event! This explains everything...

[OldCrowBalthazor]

Those Bulgarians in Syria are doomed..but if you enter Damascus..you conquer newly created Entente Syria. You do realize that when a enemy country gets conquered..there's a global bump that lasts a few turns that enhances ALL your troops...morale! It will be evident next turn then diminish till back to normal a few turns after. Also..Damascus or any other goddess forsaken town there is a supply source. I have cavalry racing up there but could not enter the city because of your Z.O.C. So you can still give me a slap as your going out the door. [:D]

Btw..in a match last year, and I was CP...same thing happened. Only, I had a German HQ...3 corps, a cavalry, the Bulgar Arty and a bunch of Bulgar detachments stranded in Syria. We fought guerrilla and tied up the entire British force out of Egypt for quite a long time haha. Epic.

This kind of stuff is what folks miss who quit mid-game because they feel they are 'losing'. Thats another subject all together. I'll snip off the beginning of a rant on the 'quitting' subject right now.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Those Bulgarians in Syria are doomed..but if you enter Damascus..you conquer newly created Entente Syria. You do realize that when a enemy country gets conquered..there's a global bump that lasts a few turns that enhances ALL your troops...morale! It will be evident next turn then diminish till back to normal a few turns after. Also..Damascus or any other goddess forsaken town there is a supply source. I have cavalry racing up there but could not enter the city because of your Z.O.C. So you can still give me a slap as your going out the door. [:D]

Btw..in a match last year, and I was CP...same thing happened. Only, I had a German HQ...3 corps, a cavalry, the Bulgar Arty and a bunch of Bulgar detachments stranded in Syria. We fought guerrilla and tied up the entire British force out of Egypt for quite a long time haha. Epic.

This kind of stuff is what folks miss who quit mid-game because they feel they are 'losing'. Thats another subject all together. I'll snip off the beginning of a rant on the 'quitting' subject right now.

Yes this is exactly what I did. Syria is now conquered for the moment haha.

I won't give anymore spoilers but a lot is happening this turn. And quite agree this chaos is fun to watch you know I don't quit! Rage on!

[Bavre]

I just remembered another tidbit for Turkish early game: you can savely ingnore all the partisan hexes for over a year. The first ones activate in Nov 15 iirc and there should be an old thread from mdsmall around somewhere about decision events that contains the details.

And about the Balkan push: no matter if you overall go east or west, sending some German troops to help Austria there on turn one is imho the investment with the by far greatest interests CP can make on turn 1. For reasons CP already mentioned I practically consider it mandatory in a Russia first.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Bavre

I just remembered another tidbit for Turkish early game: you can savely ingnore all the partisan hexes for over a year. The first ones activate in Nov 15 iirc and there should be an old thread from mdsmall around somewhere about decision events that contains the details.

And about the Balkan push: no matter if you overall go east or west, sending some German troops to help Austria there on turn one is imho the investment with the by far greatest interests CP can make on turn 1. For reasons CP already mentioned I practically consider it mandatory in a Russia first.

Great tips thanks! This part still makes me wonder if a Russia first is not always the best option...