Vichy France

[Numdydar]

Apparently North Africa (NA) Vichy France (VF), i.e. not Syria, can be invaded by either side, British/Axis without causing mainland VF to become involved. This is a little absurd.

If the Axis attacks VF anywhere but Syria, then all of VF should become Allied. If just the British attack VF NA, then all of VF should become German.

The only time mainland VF should remain neutral is if the US + anyone else attacks NA VF.

Also why does capturing Algeria cause Morocco to surrender (or Tunisa for that matter)? You should have to capture Rabat to cause Morocco to surrender since that is the capital of Morocco.

The reason for these questions is the Axis caused all of VF NA to surrender by capturing Algeris and then they sailed troops from France in TRANSPORTS (no German warships involved) to the Atlantic side of Morocco and landed them without any interference from the British fleets stationed at Gibraltar.

So British scout craft, small vessels + aircraft, are somehow missing a transport fleet big enough to carry several corps sail from French ports, down Spain's coast, and disembark troops a few hundred miles away from a major British base and fleet stationed there? And nothing happens?

We barely had the lift capacity to get three divisions across the English Channel, Yet Germany has enough lift to transport corps to Morocco from France in 1940?

This is NOT an invasion since the Atlantic ports turned German when Algeria is captured some 600 miles away. Really?

As far as I can tell the ONLY way the Allies could have stopped this in the game is if they had a fleet at sea 4 hexes away from these ports. Which is really a stupid mechanic.

A fleet should have the ability to intercept ANY moving fleet within a one dot move of a hex the opposing fleet is moving into. One dot to move, one dot to attack. Hell even half a one dot would be better than what we have now.

[Nirosi]

I understand the logistical problem with transports, fleet etc. However for the political side, I think it would be unrealistic and unhistorical to force all Vichy into the war if a colony is invaded.

The British not only attacked the French fleet in 1940, they also took Syria in 1941 (and attacked Dakar) with only minor reactions from Vichy France. Certainly did not become a German ally in "game terms". Australia even maintained relations with Vichy until... 1944! And when the Allies landed in North Africa, it was actually the Germans that decided to invade the rest mainland France been afraid of what could happen if they did not, such as Vichy actually join the Allies [was a real even if probably unrealistic worry at that stage] (which could not be reproduced if Vichy would join the Germans obviously). So I think that political and historial speaking, the actually rule is quite ok and relatively similar to what can been seen in some other wargames (certainly not rare rule).

For Algiers, I can only assume it is to represent how fast the tide turned with many Vichy solfier and officers laying down weapons and actually joining the Allies. The landing in North Africa was about as much a political switch as a military conquest.

[Numdydar]

You could be correct about mainland VF as it was the Germans that invaded due to Torch.

But still all of NA VF should not surrender just because Algiers was captured. Each capital for each area should have to be captured. Unless the US lands

[Nirosi]

Unless the US lands

That could make some sense. Not sure how easy it is to code however (to differentiate the "invader"), but I can only guess it should be possible. Vichy North Africa resisting the Axis more than the US would probably make historical sense...

[heliodorus04]

Why? What do you know about French cooperation and capitulation to the Nazi tyranny?

The Vichy French Government was the authority over these French territories. If Petain said "I'll allow it," then it was allowed (like say, the deportation of French Jews to the concentration camps!). France's government took the position that it was modestly pro-Tripartite. When Japan demanded French Indo-China, they got it without a fight and nothing changed elsewhere. The allies continued to fear that Japan might force secession of Madagascar, threatening the entirety of the Indian Ocean. When the British fired on the French Fleet and invaded Syria, France did not retaliate nor send its Navy to be manned by the Germans or start raiding British commerce lanes.

MANY games of this type treat the Vichy territories exactly like this.

[sveint]

The biggest problem is the Vichy fleet which should be scuttled.

[Numdydar]

The issue is that the Axis can send major forces to the Atlantic coast of NA without any interference from the Allies. And keep all of them supplied. All due to the way the naval system works and how NA VF is coded.

[Nirosi]

The biggest problem is the Vichy fleet which should be scuttled.

That would be nice, but I would not make it 100% automatic. There should be a random roll with the biggest chances by far been scuttling a very small chance for capture and and a smaller one for escaping. Not dissimilar as in some games (ETO and AETO that I remember). I would not make it all or none, but a roll per ship.

The whole thing was a mess with many "rebondissements". Some ships (but not all) were technically ready to sail (most had enough fuel in despite armistice rules prohibiting it) but with not enough sailors aboard and hesitant or divided officers. At one point Laval (pro German prime minister) and the French admiral Le Luc sent orders to cancel the scuttling, but the order did not reach in time (would probably have not been obeyed by then, but who knows)...

So I would make it random to show for the randomness of war in General and ambiguity and hesitations of both Vichy Government and even more so Vichy sailors : Germans might have been a day or a few hours late and ships could leave, maybe orders from Laval arrived in time (and be obeyed; very small chance but still), maybe German were swift and did capture some ships (it was their goal after all, even bringing pioneers to disarm charges, so a small chance should be there for their operation to succeed).

Would also add some... spice...

[Numdydar]

In addition to the nonsense going on I have posted above, the entire German fleet sailed from Germany, around Britian, and are now based in NA ports on the Atlantic. All without a single naval battle with the Allies. And are now raiding the So. Africia convoy route. This is just madness.

[stjeand]

Where are the Allied Carriers?
The can smash the German fleet in port since they have to go there at some point.
Also LBA might have a shot.

There is good and bad with the Germans occupying NA...

1) The Germans have to place units there that will not be in the USSR...so now you have perhaps 4 corps no longer there.
2) The Allies can now invade with no worries that they fail to take Algiers and the Axis get more units, less in USSR.
3) The Germans have to base air here to keep the British from just bombing them for free experience from Gibraltar.

The bad.

1) German fleet can be based there...though not all in one port since none of the ports are big enough to keep all the ships fueled. The Axis better put a lot of AA or they will be smashed by carrier attacks on the port.
2) German troops now guard the ports so a bit harder for the Allies to land, though rarely impossible.

[Numdydar]

Really? My CVs are pretty much useless. I can't find the ships. When I do, they miss most of the time. So what am I missing?

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Really? My CVs are pretty much useless. I can't find the ships. When I do, they miss most of the time. So what am I missing?

Carrier Operations 1942 is the key advancement to reach.

[stjeand]

In port they are easier to find...at least from what I have seen.

[aoffen]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


Carrier Operations 1942 is the key advancement to reach.

I am not sure I see it. Why 1942? 1 extra naval attack factor is all I see. Its a big effort to get there for seemingly limited reward.

[stjeand]

I never update my Carriers...

I still can take out the German Navy fairly easily if they keep to sea and you keep chasing.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: aoffen

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Carrier Operations 1942 is the key advancement to reach.

I am not sure I see it. Why 1942? 1 extra naval attack factor is all I see. Its a big effort to get there for seemingly limited reward.

A little more than this compared to leave your CVs with Carrier Operations 1939.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: sveint

The biggest problem is the Vichy fleet which should be scuttled.

If there is not the fleet, what is preventing the Germans to invade Vichy France in 1940 just after accepting the surrender of France?

[sveint]

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: sveint

The biggest problem is the Vichy fleet which should be scuttled.

If there is not the fleet, what is preventing the Germans to invade Vichy France in 1940 just after accepting the surrender of France?

Nothing, but we could have the colonies join the Allies if mainland attacked.

Anything but one side getting the entire fleet.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: sveint

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: sveint

The biggest problem is the Vichy fleet which should be scuttled.

If there is not the fleet, what is preventing the Germans to invade Vichy France in 1940 just after accepting the surrender of France?

Nothing, but we could have the colonies join the Allies if mainland attacked.

Anything but one side getting the entire fleet.

I agree with you on the fleet. Just want to balance things. But, there is something strange. Looks like this mechanism is already existing in the game rules in Europe 1941 scenario.

If Vichy France is attacked, the colonies are joining the Allies.

[ncc1701e]

And it works.