The Soviet Mobility Issue

[ImperatorAugustus]

Historically the Soviets lost a large number of their trucks and trains in the opening stages of the war, limiting the offensives they could do.

Trains are not really represented at all, and during a fair chunk of the game the Soviets will have little logistical issues. Assuming the player manages their trucks correctly. Interdiction is of extremely limited use compared to irl.

I believe that the Soviets are able to unrealistically supply their men before late war.

I also believe the Soviets have a FAR greater strategic mobility advantage than was historically, which is aided by the former.

They can simply deploy from reserves anywhere they are really needed without using rail capacity.
Soviets can use this in conjunctions with large SUs to create insanely rapid and overwhelming assaults on the Germans in 43, so much so that it tends to annihilate them. 3 Rifle corps can be stacked and deployed anywhere and ready in 3 ish turns and slapped in the SUs to conduct 300k men assaults.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: ImperatorAugustus

... to create insanely rapid and overwhelming assaults on the Germans in 43, so much so that it tends to annihilate them. 3 Rifle corps can be stacked and deployed anywhere and ready in 3 ish turns and slapped in the SUs to conduct 300k men assaults.

Do you have in game evidence for this claim?

T115 (ie end August/start Sept 1943)



and

[Stamb]

map -> reserve -> map is the real exploit.

Comrade RedJohn will show it here:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135309

[Stamb]

I would propose that moving units from a reserve to a map (TBs) and vice versa should cost rail capacity.

[AlbertN]

Frankly the Germans can do the same with SUs. I do understand Soviets may have more SUs but I can assure you Germans can fly the Tiger Battallions around pratically.

Map - Reserve - Map is somehow solvable by altering the distance that a unit needs to be sent to reserve (or better have the check made before the unit makes any move) AND the distance that the reserve access to map hex must have from enemy units (Unless it's a NSS). That may hotpatch the situation - but I do agree presently it's broken.

What I feel the real problem is, is that Soviets benefit of admin movements on the defense, can easily reposition, and pretty much advance in enemy hexes like the Germans. I kind of liked the WITE1 way to have morale affecting the cost per hex of enemy controlled hexes, while in WITE2 that applies only if there are roads.

[Stamb]

They can move whole divisions, not only SUs.

Admin movement is another issue.

[AlbertN]

Yes but if the movement is MAP to RESERVE on T0, a unit arrives to the Reserve next turn (T1) -and- as it is fresh arrived, it cannot be moved.
Then it will be ordered on T0 from RESERVE to MAP, and arrive thus on T3.

That is not as crippling or overpowered as one thinks, IF the distance of deployment is like 15 hexes from an enemy unit instead of 8 (unless it's on a NSS).
And way less units can cycle out of the map and into the reserve IF the check that enables transfer MAP > RESERVE happens only at the start of the turn, before ground units move.

Right now it's almost a guarantee barring the first turns where the front is hectic - that a Soviet unit via admin movement waltzes away of 8 hexes, gained distance and teleports into the Reserve.

[ImperatorAugustus]

The Germans have to rail their forces around and cannot be strong everywhere. Soviets can pop 3 rifle corps into reserve, refit without using rail, pop back up just a few hexes from the front, slap massive SUs on them and then delete any reasonable tile in front of them.

The only comparable thing that the Germans have is Flak Regiments and Tigers. The first cant attack well. Both are limited and the one doenst come until basically 43.

This allows the Soviets to throw at least 2 concentrated offensives in a season and the Germans have to maneuver to deal with it.

Soviets dont have nearly as bad of rail problems as they should (excepting late game)

Loki you are also one of the better players here, and I'm sure in your scenario you are well out performing what the Germans did historically and have more to work with. You are also exploiting the I go you go to make phantom encirclement.

[baloo7777]

But how would that affect play balance if the Soviet Reserve usage was nerfed? I think it would handicap the Soviets much more than the Germans, as to have any hope of survival into/through 1941/1942 the Soviet player needs to make good use of the Reserve.

[carlkay58]

I would also like to put a few things for consideration about this.

1. Any unit going to the map from the Reserves has no supplies/ammo/fuel, leadership, or internal trucks on the turn of arrival.

2. All units in the Reserve have 0 CPP and will not accumulate CPP until on the map.

Those two facts mean that the units from the Reserve will take at least one if not two or three turns on the map with leadership in order to be ready for combat. My experience (admittedly limited) as a Soviet commander is that if you have to throw those new units into combat within a turn or two of arriving on the map is that they are easy game for any Axis player and will likely rout or even shatter on first contact.

[RedJohn]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

I would also like to put a few things for consideration about this.

1. Any unit going to the map from the Reserves has no supplies/ammo/fuel, leadership, or internal trucks on the turn of arrival.

2. All units in the Reserve have 0 CPP and will not accumulate CPP until on the map.

Those two facts mean that the units from the Reserve will take at least one if not two or three turns on the map with leadership in order to be ready for combat. My experience (admittedly limited) as a Soviet commander is that if you have to throw those new units into combat within a turn or two of arriving on the map is that they are easy game for any Axis player and will likely rout or even shatter on first contact.

Apologies, but the first point is meaningless in most situations - except for leadership and trucks. The latter hardly matters in most cases unless it's tank corps, and even the starting armored/mech divisions - when sent to reserve - don't immediately deplete of trucks. I have had some issues with trucks as the soviets for these early units, but I also go out of my way to beef them up as much as possible before suiciding them into panzers. It's really not an issue.

Point 2 is a fair argument, but you don't *need* CPP in the early turns. Don't get me wrong it's extremely helpful, but the entire game revolves around maximizing the MP germany spends.

Here's a screenshot of recently arrived units from the reserve, organized under the 16th army. Pretty bad supplies on the whole - a bad thing!

[RedJohn]

Here's the same army after moving them a hex next to an airfield and dropping 224 tons of freight. (1 air transport click)

Supply is such a hilarious non-issue for the Soviets, and the only time it matters for recently arrived units is if the Germans overrun your initial reserve hex and your units are thrown about.