How is Finland?

[Teemu1986]

I'm concerned about Finland's situation in WITE2.
So if Germany takes Leningrad, 3 Finnish divisions will be released. But Finland actually had more than 3 divisions in the Karelian isthmus.
What happens to the Soviet divisions then which historically faced the Finnish army northwards of Leningrad? Will they be destroyed?

What advantage is there for Germany to link up with the Finns at the river Svir? (Kädenlyönti Syvärillä)

And moreover, what advantage is there to advance 250 km further to the East all the way to Voznesenye?

Taking Leningrad would liberate the divisions in the Karelian isthmus. If the German-Soviet frontline is 250 km further to the East, that would also liberate the divisions in East Karelia between Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega.

Why not put the Finnish divisions on the map like in WITE1, when they were historically there? There's uncertainty about the what-if question, what the Finns would do if Germany has greater success in the northern sector. Depends on the confidence the Finnish High Command has on ultimate German victory. But at the very least the Finland theater box should reflect the progress of operations. The logistical situation in more northern parts of Finland precluded both sides from deploying larger forces there.

[Jango32]

The Finland TB's scripted requirements and intensities do not change at all if Leningrad is captured.

[Stamb]

Which is an issue.

[Stamb]

Also there is something wrong with a message that Leningrad has fallen. I took Leningrad few turns ago but still there is no message about it. I had the same in my previous game.

[Jango32]

You only get that event if the Finns appear on the map.

[xhoel]

Yeah, the capture of Leningrad should have consequences to the TB requirements and there should be some other event that would allow the Axis to press their advantage if they commit some more forces to it.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Also there is something wrong with a message that Leningrad has fallen. I took Leningrad few turns ago but still there is no message about it. I had the same in my previous game.

did you take it in the time period? And remember it has a relatively low % to happen - check the event schedules

ORIGINAL: Teemu1986
...

Why not put the Finnish divisions on the map like in WITE1, when they were historically there? There's uncertainty about the what-if question, what the Finns would do if Germany has greater success in the northern sector. Depends on the confidence the Finnish High Command has on ultimate German victory. But at the very least the Finland theater box should reflect the progress of operations. The logistical situation in more northern parts of Finland precluded both sides from deploying larger forces there.

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Yeah, the capture of Leningrad should have consequences to the TB requirements and there should be some other even that would allow the Axis to press their advantage.

these two are related, the reason Finland is in a TB was fundamentally development time for a front that stalled in late 1941 and only really became active again in mid-44. To get the AI to cope with the long low intensity front was a real challenge, so essentially the game came out in 2021 with the current compromise or probably somewhere near 2030.

As it is, Finland will be addressed, there is work at the moment on teaching the AI to deal with low intensity fronts that is relevant

In turn there is a good reason not to have too many conditional/branching events. They are a nice idea in theory but very problematic - and I say that as someone with a lot of experience of designing and coding them for the old AGEOD games

[Stamb]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Also there is something wrong with a message that Leningrad has fallen. I took Leningrad few turns ago but still there is no message about it. I had the same in my previous game.

did you take it in the time period? And remember it has a relatively low % to happen - check the event schedules

[/quote]
Not sure what you are asking.

But Jango32 gave me an answer "You only get that event if the Finns appear on the map". It just looks strange from a player perspective that he get this message after (1 - infinity turns) after fall of a Leningrad. But now I understand why that message is so late.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

...
Not sure what you are asking.

But Jango32 gave me an answer "You only get that event if the Finns appear on the map". It just looks strange from a player perspective that he get this message after (1 - infinity turns) after fall of a Leningrad. But now I understand why that message is so late.

did you meet the time based element of the criteria?

[Jango32]

It's because the event mentions the fall of Leningrad and also the fact that Finnish divisions arrive as an expeditionary force.

[Teemu1986]

ORIGINAL: loki100
these two are related, the reason Finland is in a TB was fundamentally development time for a front that stalled in late 1941 and only really became active again in mid-44. To get the AI to cope with the long low intensity front was a real challenge, so essentially the game came out in 2021 with the current compromise or probably somewhere near 2030.

As it is, Finland will be addressed, there is work at the moment on teaching the AI to deal with low intensity fronts that is relevant

In turn there is a good reason not to have too many conditional/branching events. They are a nice idea in theory but very problematic - and I say that as someone with a lot of experience of designing and coding them for the old AGEOD games

The Finnish front stalling is one of many historical possibilities. By no means assured. How many games have the exact same historical situation on the Leningrad front?

Strategic options would be good. For the Soviet player, the option to fight for Olonets and Petrozavodsk to supply Leningrad through that railway/port connection. For the Axis player, the option to cut the Murmansk railroad in Belomorsk.

Conditional/branching events have been in wargames forever. Take a hex -> deploy counters on the map.
In my opinion, some what-if events are needed to keep the late game interesting. There's imbalance with Soviets having "win-more mechanics", withdrawal of Axis minors for example. Whereas Germany lacks equivalent mechanics (cutting of Lend-Lease etc.).

[Winglet]

Finnish front was very wierd from military perspective (tbh it makes no sense, just look at the map) and this was a result of political decisions. There is nothing reasonable you can do with AI to mantain historical outcome, the only thing to do there is to handicap it, which current state of TB solves complitely and easely. Finnish theater wasn't total war and this game is about total war, anything but total war will break AI.

[xhoel]

ORIGINAL: Teemu1986


Strategic options would be good. For the Soviet player, the option to fight for Olonets and Petrozavodsk to supply Leningrad through that railway/port connection. For the Axis player, the option to cut the Murmansk railroad in Belomorsk.

Conditional/branching events have been in wargames forever. Take a hex -> deploy counters on the map.
In my opinion, some what-if events are needed to keep the late game interesting. There's imbalance with Soviets having "win-more mechanics", withdrawal of Axis minors for example. Whereas Germany lacks equivalent mechanics (cutting of Lend-Lease etc.).

+1

[AlbertN]

I believe the 'Northern Front' will simply be subject to a DLC.
Which I dare say, extra map, extra units - is more interesting than 'more scenarios' as the predecessors for the WITx DLCs.

But that is just my gut vibe. But it requires an amount of work for logistics unless Helsinki turns into a NSS.

[Teemu1986]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN
I believe the 'Northern Front' will simply be subject to a DLC.
Which I dare say, extra map, extra units - is more interesting than 'more scenarios' as the predecessors for the WITx DLCs.

But that is just my gut vibe. But it requires an amount of work for logistics unless Helsinki turns into a NSS.

Would that be the entire Finnish front or only the parts which are currently on the map?

[AlbertN]

I am a player - so that's just my opinion. I think if it's a DLC that people pay for - it has to be the whole map up to Murmansk zone.

[Teemu1986]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

I am a player - so that's just my opinion. I think if it's a DLC that people pay for - it has to be the whole map up to Murmansk zone.

Stopping Lend-Lease (partly) should be included then. Otherwise there’s no point. Murmansk’s significance was only as a Lend-Lease port.

[Stamb]

+

[AlbertN]

With how logistics in this game work, I somehow doubt the Axis can seize Murmansk at all barring maybe some 'air supply fuelled offensive' if that will ever be a thing.
It's more probable some 'sneaky sky Sissi battallion' gets to interrupt the railroad somewhere along the line exactly as the 16th Motorized Division operating from Elitsa reached the railroad and the Caspian Sea with a pointe once.
That may be the case of a hex flipping, then the relevant Axis units has to retreat and the turn after the Soviets get it back and the turn after that the hex gets repaired.

If that DLC comes I hope the Finns do not have a political leash of any sort and can go wild no less than the Soviets can retreat without issues in South Russia. So that Leningrad can be pressured from the North too.

I do agree it should be an option though, and for all I saw the Lend Lease stuff that arrives has a 'route' of Lend Lease in the Soviet industrial panel.

[Teemu1986]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN
With how logistics in this game work, I somehow doubt the Axis can seize Murmansk at all barring maybe some 'air supply fuelled offensive' if that will ever be a thing.
It's more probable some 'sneaky sky Sissi battallion' gets to interrupt the railroad somewhere along the line exactly as the 16th Motorized Division operating from Elitsa reached the railroad and the Caspian Sea with a pointe once.
That may be the case of a hex flipping, then the relevant Axis units has to retreat and the turn after the Soviets get it back and the turn after that the hex gets repaired.

If that DLC comes I hope the Finns do not have a political leash of any sort and can go wild no less than the Soviets can retreat without issues in South Russia. So that Leningrad can be pressured from the North too.

I do agree it should be an option though, and for all I saw the Lend Lease stuff that arrives has a 'route' of Lend Lease in the Soviet industrial panel.

One way to do it is reach Belomorsk and cut the Murmansk railway there. Finns were as close as 60 km to the town and were supplied by rail. Finns captured the Petrozavodsk- Medvezhyegorsk branch of the Murmansk railroad.
If the Murmansk railway is cut, the Soviet troops in the arctic region are isolated. The White Sea freezes in the winter which means no freight from Archangelsk to Murmansk.