Leader Deaths

[HardLuckYetAgain]

I have turned this into a leader death thread after it has become apparant that leader deaths seem to be happening greater than the stated value.



Turn 1

Beginning of Turn

Gotta love it! 17 Dead Leaders even before I move. Seems to me the increase in leaders KIA has gone up substantially. /shrug oh well I will just use whatever leader anyway.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Defiantly a strategy now, if it is not then it sure will be shortly. I am sure next turn I will lose even more leaders and some more good ones at that since I don't have the AP to promote enough good ones to get them out of trouble. Just going to let it happen to see the grand total and how many good leaders get waxed the next turn. Should be interesting to see at the minimum. But this strategy is GREAT to get rid of GOOD Soviet leaders early. Why not?

The leader deaths have, in my observation, increased greatly. So I would recommend ALL Germans to target all the HQ's as much as you can the first few turns to get these Soviet leader KIA's. Why not get those good leaders out of the way while you can before they can be saved. Cheesy strategy but hey the game allows for it with current leader deaths.

[DesertedFox]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Defiantly a strategy now, if it is not then it sure will be shortly. I am sure next turn I will lose even more leaders and some more good ones at that since I don't have the AP to promote enough good ones to get them out of trouble. Just going to let it happen to see the grand total and how many good leaders get waxed the next turn. Should be interesting to see at the minimum. But this strategy is GREAT to get rid of GOOD Soviet leaders early. Why not?

The leader deaths have, in my observation, increased greatly. So I would recommend ALL Germans to target all the HQ's as much as you can the first few turns to get these Soviet leader KIA's. Why not get those good leaders out of the way while you can before they can be saved. Cheesy strategy but hey the game allows for it with current leader deaths.

Well HLYA there have been a number of excellent ideas on how to increase the number of leader deaths in this thread.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135993

We have

ORIGINAL: xhoel

I dont think this is a bug. Leaders of isolated forces were sometimes evacuated by air and sent to other locations and the new leader was either flown in or assigned from the ones already in the pocket.

I think what could be changed is: adding a certain percentage that a leader being reassigned from a pocket will die. Air crash/air intercept etc.

and

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Yep. Maybe something in between of 15% and 50%. 30%?

Unfortunately (cough cough) Joel spoiled the party

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I doubt we will change this, since you have to spend the APs to do this. Players can always house rule against it if they want to.

What a pity, we could have had a DLC to address these leaders flying out and called it "Assassinations in the East".

[DesertedFox]

German generals flown out of Stalingrad at night.

How many didn't make it I don't know, but I am sure we can get that first turn figure of 17 deaths over the 25 mark if we try hard enough.

https://www.stalingrad.net/german-hq/fate-german-generals/german-officers-became-general.htm

[xhoel]

@HLYA: The changes have increased the leader deaths too much and should be reduced. Leader deaths should not be something that the players are gaming for and unfortunately currently the game incentivizes just that.

@DesertedFox: This isn`t the gotcha you think it is as that thread was about something different

[ShaggyHiK]

The death of a leader is what gives each party a unique flavor. This mechanic should be, the question here is that the death of a leader such as Zhukov or Tolbukhin is something that actually weakens the Soviet army too much in the initial and middle periods of the war. These are commanders that cannot be replaced.

In general, it turns out to be a rather strange system, when changing / shooting / death of a leader for an army, put the best commander available. On the one hand, this simplifies Soviet reassignments. On the other hand, why is this system applied to encircled headquarters? A replacement of this kind looks like the fact that STAVKA sends the commander to the surrounded or vulnerable headquarters so that the sent commander would die there. Seriously?

If the commander is dead then he has deputies, chiefs of staff, lesser officers who at least temporarily fill the void of power.

And as a rule, these are people from this army, so it’s strange that it is the best commanders from the pool who get as a replacement for those killed.

[Stamb]

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Defiantly a strategy now, if it is not then it sure will be shortly. I am sure next turn I will lose even more leaders and some more good ones at that since I don't have the AP to promote enough good ones to get them out of trouble. Just going to let it happen to see the grand total and how many good leaders get waxed the next turn. Should be interesting to see at the minimum. But this strategy is GREAT to get rid of GOOD Soviet leaders early. Why not?

The leader deaths have, in my observation, increased greatly. So I would recommend ALL Germans to target all the HQ's as much as you can the first few turns to get these Soviet leader KIA's. Why not get those good leaders out of the way while you can before they can be saved. Cheesy strategy but hey the game allows for it with current leader deaths.

Well HLYA there have been a number of excellent ideas on how to increase the number of leader deaths in this thread.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135993

We have

ORIGINAL: xhoel

I dont think this is a bug. Leaders of isolated forces were sometimes evacuated by air and sent to other locations and the new leader was either flown in or assigned from the ones already in the pocket.

I think what could be changed is: adding a certain percentage that a leader being reassigned from a pocket will die. Air crash/air intercept etc.

and

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Yep. Maybe something in between of 15% and 50%. 30%?

Unfortunately (cough cough) Joel spoiled the party

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I doubt we will change this, since you have to spend the APs to do this. Players can always house rule against it if they want to.

What a pity, we could have had a DLC to address these leaders flying out and called it "Assassinations in the East".

If you could only read a whole thread.
What is the reason for not letting SU relocation when it is in the pocket? For AP for example. Because everybody would use it and evacuate the most valuable units.
I though that same rule is applying to a leaders. But it is not. Ok. No tragedy.

There was a fix, not even a change, to a leaders death chance: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5140067
v01.02.15
Leaders in HQs forcibly displaced were not being killed as often as they should (15% non-isolated/50% isolated). Fixed.

It means that previously it was not working correctly. Was it not working from a game release? I do not know. But I started to play this game few month ago and it was not working like described.
But people get used to it. And now - boom, why my leaders are actually dying while previously you could displace 50 HQ with few deaths?
In my opinion 15% non-isolated/50% isolated chance for a death is ok. It makes sense that HQ commander is a target when enemy troops gets to a HQ.

[Stamb]

Maybe something has to be done to prevent reassigning of other valuable leaders to a HQ that was displaced.

[DesertedFox]

If you could only read a whole thread.
What is the reason for not letting SU relocation when it is in the pocket? For AP for example. Because everybody would use it and evacuate the most valuable units.
I though that same rule is applying to a leaders. But it is not. Ok. No tragedy.

There was a fix, not even a change, to a leaders death chance: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5140067
v01.02.15
Leaders in HQs forcibly displaced were not being killed as often as they should (15% non-isolated/50% isolated). Fixed.

It means that previously it was not working correctly. Was it not working from a game release? I do not know. But I started to play this game few month ago and it was not working like described.
But people get used to it. And now - boom, why my leaders are actually dying while previously you could displace 50 HQ with few deaths?
In my opinion 15% non-isolated/50% isolated chance for a death is ok. It makes sense that HQ commander is a target when enemy troops gets to a HQ.

The fix came out in patch .15 released on Jan 15th, well before that thread your comment is made came out on Jan 27th.

Change History:
v01.02.15 – 15th January 2022
Bug Fixes and AI Improvements
• Areas that should be in supply via ports are showing as isolated (Baltic Islands, cut off ports like
Odessa – new bug created in 1.02.14). Fixed.
• Leaders in HQs forcibly displaced were not being killed as often as they should (15% nonisolated/50% isolated). Fixed.

ORIGINAL: xhoel

@DesertedFox: This isn`t the gotcha you think it is as that thread was about something different

I know what that thread was about (isolated leaders being transferred) see this post.

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

German generals flown out of Stalingrad at night.

How many didn't make it I don't know, but I am sure we can get that first turn figure of 17 deaths over the 25 mark if we try hard enough.

https://www.stalingrad.net/german-hq/fate-german-generals/german-officers-became-general.htm

Your "suggestion" came AFTER the patch-fixed the leader % death chances. You just wanted more of them.

Thus it was exactly the gotcha I wrote about.

[DesertedFox]

ORIGINAL: xhoel

@HLYA: The changes have increased the leader deaths too much and should be reduced. Leader deaths should not be something that the players are gaming for and unfortunately currently the game incentivizes just that.

You write this statement today saying % is too much but on the 27th wrote there should be a chance of leaders dying being transferred out of a pocket, which would INCREASE the chances currently in game of leaders dying.

ORIGINAL: xhoel

I think what could be changed is: adding a certain percentage that a leader being reassigned from a pocket will die. Air crash/air intercept etc.

I didn't see the post on the 27th where you stuck your hand up and said

The changes have increased the leader deaths too much

[Stamb]

My thread was after the changes. Yes. And it is about relocating leaders from a pocket with 0 chances of being killed. Do you understand it? Not 15% not 50%. Zero.
I don't want more kills. Or higher chances that 15 or 50. But not 0. There must be a risk for a leader when he is moved out of a pocket via reassigning.

[DesertedFox]

Yes, I understand what you were talking about. Did you see this post above?

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

German generals flown out of Stalingrad at night.

How many didn't make it I don't know, but I am sure we can get that first turn figure of 17 deaths over the 25 mark if we try hard enough.

https://www.stalingrad.net/german-hq/fa ... eneral.htm

You were not happy with the changes that you still wanted more deaths from pockets.

[Stamb]

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

I didn't see the post on the 27th where you stuck your hand up and said

The changes have increased the leader deaths too much

Check my post #6 here :
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5129529

[DesertedFox]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

. There must be a risk for a leader when he is moved out of a pocket via reassigning.

So HLYA's 17 leader deaths sits fine with you and you would like to add a risk of death being transferred out of a pocket along with the high AP points needed to accomplish that?

I don't want more kills

Your suggestion WILL increase leader deaths. Seriously you don't get that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RedJohn]

It applies to both sides. In my 1943 game I have had the likes of Rommel, Lothar, Gotthard, all killed. The change in death chances was fixing a bug, and is now working as intended - just for clarification.

Personally I think it's a bit high, but it's not a big deal. I don't think there's a strategy here, getting Tolbukhin and bobkin killed is extraordinarily unlucky however.

[DesertedFox]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

I didn't see the post on the 27th where you stuck your hand up and said

The changes have increased the leader deaths too much

Check my post #6 here :
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5129529

Your comments were made in the other thread are dated from Jan 27th and on, well after the fix had been released.

Backtracking now doesn't count for jack S.

[Stamb]

When we are talking about 17 dead leaders in turn 1 it really looks strange as Axis player was overrunning HQs when they were not isolated, thus 15% chance must apply.

To get 17 dead leaders you have to overrun 113 HQs. 113*0.15 = 16.95. Is it possible to do on turn 1? No.

If we use 50% chance of a death for a NON isolated HQ then we get 34 HQs for 17 leader deaths. Is is also possible on turn 1? Probably not.

Looks like there is a bug or HLYA is super unlucky.

[Stamb]

DesertedFox

I am not sure if you are trolling me or not.
I will give my best one more time.

In Post #: 13 in this topic I gave a link where I suspect that there might be a bug.

In my thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135993 I describe a problem. And right now there is 0% chance that leader will die if he is relocated via reassigning. ZERO. No more leaders death. There will be 0 when using this method.
I thought it should be between 15% and 50% (lets say 30%) for it when using AP to move leader out of a pocket (pocket by itself means that it is isolated). I do not want to add this 30% that I propose to existing 15% or 50%.

I want to add this 30% to a 0% that we have right now.

[DesertedFox]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

DesertedFox

I am not sure if you are trolling me or not.
I will give my best one more time.

In Post #: 13 in this topic I gave a link where I suspect that there might be a bug.

In my thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5135993 I describe a problem. And right now there is 0% chance that leader will die if he is relocated via reassigning. ZERO. No more leaders death. There will be 0 when using this method.
I thought it should be between 15% and 50% (lets say 30%) for it when using AP to move leader out of a pocket (pocket by itself means that it is isolated). I do not want to add this 30% that I propose to existing 15% or 50%.

I want to add this 30% to a 0% that we have right now.

No, you are trolling me.

You say.

I don't want more kills

and then you say this

I want to add this 30% to a 0% that we have right now.

Which will INCREASE the chances of having leader deaths in the game!

[xhoel]

@Stamb: This guy is just a sad a troll that just wants to bother people. He isnt interested in having a discussion. Just ignore him.