Research multitasking

[GHerr]

I want to apologize upfront because I was unable to find the original thread that was discussing something along these lines. The original question was related to what advantage is there to say researching 3 techs at once rather than putting all your research into one. I believe the response was that there wasn't any and that the option to research more things at once was provided just in case people had a preference but ultimately only in rare circumstances would it make a difference. And the difference wasn't related to efficiency.

I wanted to make a suggestion on this. Maybe this is already been address, again I could not find the original thread. Humble suggestion would be to make all your researching being placed into one Tech to be a little bit less efficient been having each available research option researching its own Tech. My thought would be having multiple locations researching together as a team across great distances on one project might be a little bit less efficient due to Communications or whatever. This would give an incentive to multi-thread researching (lack of better term) as it would be a little more efficient, and yet when you really want to have something pop out quickly you can have them all researching the same thing.

Thanks in advance for considering

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: GHerr

I want to apologize upfront because I was unable to find the original thread that was discussing something along these lines. The original question was related to what advantage is there to say researching 3 techs at once rather than putting all your research into one. I believe the response was that there wasn't any and that the option to research more things at once was provided just in case people had a preference but ultimately only in rare circumstances would it make a difference. And the difference wasn't related to efficiency.

I wanted to make a suggestion on this. Maybe this is already been address, again I could not find the original thread. Humble suggestion would be to make all your researching being placed into one Tech to be a little bit less efficient been having each available research option researching its own Tech. My thought would be having multiple locations researching together as a team across great distances on one project might be a little bit less efficient due to Communications or whatever. This would give an incentive to multi-thread researching (lack of better term) as it would be a little more efficient, and yet when you really want to have something pop out quickly you can have them all researching the same thing.

Thanks in advance for considering

Yes... this has already been suggested. But they will not make any such changes at the current time. The option is there for those that want to use it.

The only reason to do more than one technology is if you have done crash research on a technology, which means you can't cancel it. If you somehow need to research some other technology and you simply can't with for the first one to complete you can do another one and get it done faster than waiting for the first one to finish. This is only useful if the second one is faster to research than the first.

So.. from practical standpoint there is only a few rare instances you want to research more than one technology at any time... I could probably never see myself doing more than two... that would seem very desperate in my opinion.

I assume here that you can't move a crashed technology down the queue either... if you can then there is never a reason to do more than one at a time.

[zgrssd]

There is a fring effect if you can afford to have multipel crash proramms. And asuming those are still x3, you might even get ahead with two.
But IIRC, the devs said they would not be changing this part before release.

The option is there for those that want to use it.

It is not realy the case that it only affects people that want it.
The default setting is 3, but it is capped by Research Stations.

The issue is, getting more research stations is a intermediate goal for every game, whether I want to do 3 concurrent or not. In fact, the Advisors will suggest building more reserach stations the second you got money plus a spot.

So I would still prefer it if that setting is at 0 by default.

[GHerr]

Thanks. The cash crash research issue makes sense. I also really like the way they have made research work with the need to for additional locations.

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

There is a fring effect if you can afford to have multipel crash proramms. And asuming those are still x3, you might even get ahead with two.

How does multiple crash research change the dynamics, rather than crash one and then another in sequential order?!?

From a pure math perspective that is?

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

It is not realy the case that it only affects people that want it.
The default setting is 3, but it is capped by Research Stations.

The issue is, getting more research stations is a intermediate goal for every game, whether I want to do 3 concurrent or not. In fact, the Advisors will suggest building more reserach stations the second you got money plus a spot.

So I would still prefer it if that setting is at 0 by default.

I don't see how having more research stations have ANY impact on how many concurrent research you want to have. If you only want one research having more labs is as beneficial as if you want several concurrent research. Other than the concurrent research being caped for number of labs (which is just a negative) that reasoning make no sense to me.

I always want more research stations no matter what.

[zgrssd]

I don't see how having more research stations have ANY impact on how many concurrent research you want to have.

Exactly:
It should have no impact on the concurrent research projects you have.

It does have impact on the concurrent research projects you do have.

[StormingKiwi]

It's definitely a strange mechanic with bizarre reasoning:

- the purpose of the game system is to improve your empire over time, so why would you make a choice which delays improving your empire by increasing the number of concurrent projects?
- why do research stations have an impact on how many concurrent research projects you can execute, with the exception that after 2 research stations, a number that is trivially obtained, additional research stations don't matter for concurrent projects.

It appears that the developers are presenting players with poisonous choices and confusing functions.

[zgrssd]

I told them this is going to be a noobtrap. And while they now seem to understand the design has issues, they indicated they can not afford to look at it before release.

I wish they just set the default to 1 until they figured the mechanic out.

[zgrssd]

Currently the only use is when you get a crash project and need something else - quick - to be researched.
However that you can not move crash projects back in the list is a artificiall problem. A decision that is easily changed.

My best idea for this: Crash programs no longer take up the slots and just progress on their own at x2 Normal Research speed. But in turn you can not start more crash programs then you have science stations (but you can still "win" them or be gifted them).

But such a major change is improbable before release.

[U235]

If you think about it, if we humans were only allowed one advancement at a time, we'd still be riding on horseback. I always think about this when playing a space 4x game. I realize that one-at-a-time research is a way to control aspects of the game and make it manageable. But, to suspend disbelief, not every scientist or engineer is working on one project at a time.

[Jorgen_CAB]

ORIGINAL: U235

If you think about it, if we humans were only allowed one advancement at a time, we'd still be riding on horseback. I always think about this when playing a space 4x game. I realize that one-at-a-time research is a way to control aspects of the game and make it manageable. But, to suspend disbelief, not every scientist or engineer is working on one project at a time.

You probably would need a very different and more "boring" technology progression that is quite incremental with the occasional leaps when you discover some new radical technology.

But we would need a radically different approach to technology progression.

[Brasidas2000]

ORIGINAL: U235

If you think about it, if we humans were only allowed one advancement at a time, we'd still be riding on horseback. I always think about this when playing a space 4x game. I realize that one-at-a-time research is a way to control aspects of the game and make it manageable. But, to suspend disbelief, not every scientist or engineer is working on one project at a time.

I completely concur. I was absolutely enamored with DW1's excellent research mechanic, and it pains me to read here that it has been messed up so badly in DW2. I did have to design and upgrade my own research stations in DW1, but the efficiency in research payoff was worth it.

Sadly, while I was looking forward to it, I have many other games to play and I think I may just cancel my pre-order and wait a while on this game.

[Erik Rutins]

There's a remarkable amount of negativity here for an optional mechanism from folks who have not yet played the game.

I can assure you the DW2 research system works well, is at least as fun as DW1 and allows multiple projects to be researched if you so wish. You can do what you did in DW1. In addition, the research system has been improved in many ways:

- Expanded tech tree with more components, facilities and diplomatic techs
- Initiation costs for tech research.
- Combined research tree with navigation aids and filters for better usability
- Queueing system with re-ordering of planned projects
- In addition to generating research from population and research locations, you can also increase research by having a strong economy that can allocate additional research funding.
- Crash research (2x speed) for a significant cost
- New tech threshholds which mean that your research bonuses (from locations, characters, artifacts, facilities) matter more than in DW1. Meeting the threshholds allows you to progress further down the tree.
- Still a variety of research bonuses available from all sources, so your capabilities in one area of research may be much better than in another.
- Default variable and hidden research trees (can be fixed and fully visible as in DW1 as well).
- Far more component variables, including the ability to have "hybrid" components that don't just fit in one tech category.

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
I told them this is going to be a noobtrap. And while they now seem to understand the design has issues, they indicated they can not afford to look at it before release.
I wish they just set the default to 1 until they figured the mechanic out.

From what I recall, in a previous forum thread where I was discussing this with many posters, I proposed making the addition of concurrent projects optional as a compromise for the release version to address the concerns that players might inadvertently be lead to a choice that is not the most optimized. We're in fact trying to get that into the release build.

I still see this as a bit of a tempest in a teapot though as both ways of playing are perfectly viable and the actual theoretical optimization advantage from doing one at a time is limited in many cases by other factors, such as time/cost/opportunity to retrofit ships and bases, crash research projects and priorities, cost to build or upgrade facilties, time to recruit troops, varying research bonuses, needs of the moment, etc.

Regards,

- Erik

[StormingKiwi]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

There's a remarkable amount of negativity here for an optional mechanism from folks who have not yet played the game.

There's a remarkable amount of defensiveness here for a valid critique of a mechanic designed by folks whose operations research knowledge is lacking.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I still see this as a bit of a tempest in a teapot though as both ways of playing are perfectly viable and the actual theoretical optimization advantage from doing one at a time is limited in many cases by other factors, such as time/cost/opportunity to retrofit ships and bases, crash research projects and priorities, cost to build or upgrade facilties, time to recruit troops, varying research bonuses, needs of the moment, etc.

Both ways of playing might be feasible or viable or whatever terminology you choose, but that doesn't necessarily mean both ways of playing are equally effective. The focused way of playing is mathematically and objectively more effective than multitasking. No one has to have played the game to ascertain that.

If three techs are being researched, then yeah, at the end of the day, both players would have all three, but it's the incremental improvement as each is researched in the sequence that matters. The player who focuses always has more opportunity than the player who multitasks to utilise the technologies as they are researched because they get them sooner. The player who multitasks always has to wait until all three are finished.

[Erik Rutins]

In DW2, you're completely welcome to research 1 project or more projects concurrently. It's up to you as the player what you'd like to do.

What I'm pointing out is that this is an optional mechanic which allows you to have concurrent projects or not.

I'm not debating whether, in a vacuum, focusing on a single tech and getting it sooner is "optimal" or not. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying that as a practical matter, either is a reasonable choice in the game and there are times you may want to research more than one tech at a time because of other factors. If some would prefer to be required to research concurrent techs, the option to never focus on just one is there for you. If you prefer to focus on just one, go for it, nothing will stop you. I don't understand the negativity when in effect DW2 adds the choice without taking anything away.

Regards,

- Erik

[Nabobalis]

Without having played the game, its hard for me to judge.

But there would be no major upside to researching 3 at one time, I guess specific research bonuses could add up to make it worthwhile?

[Darkmater]

I am all for the multi concurrent research, I see the use cases. I don’t want the voices of a few to make it seem like they represent the whole. There are certainly times when multiple concurrent projects make sense for what you are trying to accomplish vs. one at a time. If anything I believe the real issue being brought up is the removal of three independent research topics from dw1 being removed.

[Brasidas2000]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

In DW2, you're completely welcome to research 1 project or more projects concurrently. It's up to you as the player what you'd like to do.

What I'm pointing out is that this is an optional mechanic which allows you to have concurrent projects or not.

I'm not debating whether, in a vacuum, focusing on a single tech and getting it sooner is "optimal" or not. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying that as a practical matter, either is a reasonable choice in the game and there are times you may want to research more than one tech at a time because of other factors. If some would prefer to be required to research concurrent techs, the option to never focus on just one is there for you. If you prefer to focus on just one, go for it, nothing will stop you. I don't understand the negativity when in effect DW2 adds the choice without taking anything away.

Regards,

- Erik

Respectfully....

Nevermind, found all answers to questions in QnA megathread.

[StormingKiwi]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

In DW2, you're completely welcome to research 1 project or more projects concurrently. It's up to you as the player what you'd like to do.

What I'm pointing out is that this is an optional mechanic which allows you to have concurrent projects or not.

I'm not debating whether, in a vacuum, focusing on a single tech and getting it sooner is "optimal" or not. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm saying that as a practical matter, either is a reasonable choice in the game and there are times you may want to research more than one tech at a time because of other factors. If some would prefer to be required to research concurrent techs, the option to never focus on just one is there for you. If you prefer to focus on just one, go for it, nothing will stop you. I don't understand the negativity when in effect DW2 adds the choice without taking anything away.

Regards,

- Erik

I am not perceiving the same negativity you are.

It's valid feedback.

I see you have misread the discussion.

The point being made is that it is not a reasonable choice. It is a choice, yes, but it is not one the player should be choosing, because of opportunity cost. The player who focuses their tech gets their tech sooner.

As a practical matter, it's an unreasonable choice to be presented with.

It's a strategy game, and choices matter.