Overruns in Russia

[stjeand]

Has anyone tested this yet?

My first test was a complete disaster. Their units are basically made of rubber.
You can attack with 30 to 1 and just bounce away.
I chased a unit once with 6 attacks and it just ran and ran.
Not sure that was the intent...but I understand it.

Wondering if a small change would be required...

Right now I believe that the unit being attacked must be at 30% strength or something like that. NOT 100% sure.
That makes sense.

BUT when attacked by overwhelming strength I think the chance for overrun should exist.

Say 3 German corps attack a single Russian corps. That is 90 str vs 20 str. Okay they can escape.
But when the unit is at 50% strength, that is 9 to 1 in size. Odds would be something like 20 to 1...the unit should not always run. Cases like that are common on the Russian front early...they clear up as their units get stronger.


MORE testing is surely required...

But I am thinking...for overrun unit must be at 30% str and specific odds OR the attacking str is 5x the unit it is attacking and be at specific odds?
This way a massively overwhelming force can overrun weaker units.

Sorry but a division sized unit should rarely be able to retreat from an attack by 3 panzer corps not matter what shape they are in.

Just some thoughts.

[CHINCHIN]

Before the last patch the Russian units in 1941 were destroyed very easily, since the last patch it is very complicated, they almost always withdraw. I think a middle ground should be found.

[AlvaroSousa]

7:1 and 1/3rd their strength for an overrun.

[AlvaroSousa]

With more retreats than overruns the game should balance better for the long game.

[stjeand]

I agree with the change BUT if someone is willing to commit a massive force of strength they should have a chance of overrunning.

If you attack a small corp with 5 full corps it should be less likely to retreat than be destroyed. Especially if armor is involved...
But that would complex to create.

That was why I had suggested IF you have say 7 to 1 odds AND say a 7 to 1 strength bonus you are move likely to overrun than allow them to escape.

That should still be rare...and required a major commitment.

I swear I chased one corp around with 7 attacks and it just bounced all over.

This does create a big issue with ZOCs...so maybe that is the bonus. That is 7 hexes with NO ZOCs anymore.

[redrum68]

Yeah, you pretty much have to surround units otherwise you end up having to attack them 5+ times to have any chance of overrunning them. This is very different from before where you attacked 1-2 times with overwhelming odds and the unit blew up. It definitely made Russia significantly stronger but also buffed France. I actually think Russia is closer to balanced now though may still need a bit more of a buff in winter to allow for a small winter offensive.

The game definitely plays differently now though I'm not sure that is a bad thing. To Alvarao's point, less overruns probably means the game is balanced better long term. It also means that surrounding units is much more important than just bashing them in which I'd argue is also a good thing. So in short, it kind of feels weird after the change given how it played before but it may actually be a better system now. I can see an argument maybe for a middle ground but its probably too early to tell. Maybe it should be changed to 1/2 instead of 1/3 for overruns. Or get rid of the strength requirement and just have a ratio requirement much higher of 15 to 1 or 20 to 1 so massively overwhelming force still gets to overruns.

[ncc1701e]

Is this the Russians are too strong thread?

[stjeand]

Too strong? No...

Made of rubber? Yup...

[Hadros]

I haven't played Europe yet since the update but to me rubber sounds good.
I remember in my games there was a time all games went like this and that felt more balanced.
Frustating as the Axis indeed in Russia. But learned to do more surroundings and going in for the kill.
Despite French retreating you don't have to worry much for counters destroying your panzers.
That means more panzers in Russia and more chances for surrounding units ...

[stjeand]

Yes the Panzers no longer die in France...they just shatter if they are stuck or retreat.
I have had quite a few shattered units now.

I only meant there should be a way with overwhelming strength that you can overrun a unit.
It would require a LARGE overwhelming strength at least 5/1 odds.

That would not happen all that often but could with effort.

[Hadros]

I might agree if your overwhelming attack was the first wave send to the enemy.
But it would be your second or third attack against the same unit

[boldairade]

I feel like i am getting the worst of this.

in my game we played with the old rules(overruns galore in Barbarossa)

Now, the tables are turned, and I am attacking as Russia, but the patch seems to be preventing any German units from being overrun!

[sveint]

Everything seems ok for me.

Well except for clear weather in October in Russia, where is the Rasputitsa?

[ncc1701e]

Well except for clear weather in October in Russia, where is the Rasputitsa?

+1 since there were no paved roads.

[ncc1701e]

Even doing an encirclement, the units are harder to destroy it seems. Definitely moving into the right direction.
Balance is near imo.

[Nirosi]

I feel like i am getting the worst of this.

in my game we played with the old rules(overruns galore in Barbarossa)

Now, the tables are turned, and I am attacking as Russia, but the patch seems to be preventing any German units from being overrun!

Well, there were a few, even 4 in a row (one/turn for four turns) I think at one point.

However, I think that overall it looks normal for that for three reasons:
1) Most Soviet units in 1941 will need to lose 12 steps before been possibly overrun (and they lose them fast), while German ones will need to lose 20 steps (and they lose them slow). So just here it should account for part of the difference.
2) Because of point #1, it also means that the Soviets will need to do more attacks for an eventual overrun, so there will be less OPs left available in a given sector for multiple attacks and therefore other eventual overruns.
3) German generals are quite good, and a high tenacity is supposed to reduce the chances that an overrun “quicks-in”.

Of course, this is for frontal assaults, for encirclements battles it will be very different. But it is harder for the Soviet to do them even in 1943-44 than it was for the Germans in 1941 for example.

[boldairade]

Nirosi how long have we been playing the updated version?

I assumed just the last 4 turns or so because I’d hoped for overruns that didn’t occur and I noticed my steam version updated about then.

If it has been longer, you are right, there were some overruns.

Oddly the Russians have the ‘advantage’ of taking more attack to attrit the Germans.

This allows one to get the Germans pretty reduced, then rotate fresh Russian formations in for the attempt at a kill shot.

Of course, the cost to Russia in readiness and OPs is huge.

[Nirosi]

Hum.. you are right, I must say I do not know when exactly the update did kick in for our game. But in this January-February there were 4 turns in a row with one (all infs) IIRC. I'll check on my AAR.

[Nirosi]

My mistake! It was three, not four (February 11th, 25th and March 10th). Two more in January that were put out of actions and sent West but did actually survive.

[generalfdog]

So far I would say it's about right