Intelligence gameplay

[Erendil]

The intelligence gameplay is too isolated from the rest of the game.

It doesn't take into account the distance to the target, the tech level of our and the target empire and the species.
There is also no events for intelligence like those for exploration.

First part, the distance :

It's illogic that you can send a spy in an empire too far away without the right warp tech and just for 12 month when it takes years for your ship to do the same.

Second part, the techs :

There is not tech to research for intelligence and counter intelligence.
Some techs could give a bonus like Stealth or scanners. Same with weapons research and Special ops (for sabotage skill).
A special tree for intelligence with prerequise from other techs (personal stealth device if you have research Stealth, garde room, blast doors for space stations to counter sabotage)

Third part, the Species :

So, a human spy can enter an alien empire and steal info without knowning their language.
Diplomacy research cound be used to give a bonus to the spy. The spy cound also get bonus if he do multiple missions in a specific empire but also could get known from them and his missions get harder.
If we chose to send a spy of a species of the target empire, the mission could become easier.

Last part, the events :
It could be cool if we got intelligence events like arresting a spy or following him to get more infos, infiltrating a base using hacking or a false identity.
A spy could get new traits from those events.

[Erik Rutins]

Some good suggestions here, thanks Erendil, I've saved this post for when we get a chance to expand on this area.

We're focusing right now on fixing some issues that are making some missions too easy in some cases. Once we have those fixed we'll get a better sense of where the balance is before making more changes.

[Erendil]

Counter intelligence is weak now. I didn't see any change between going full mission and half mission half counter. Still lose stations and didn't catch a spy.

[FlashXAron_slith]

Some good suggestions here, thanks Erendil, I've saved this post for when we get a chance to expand on this area.

We're focusing right now on fixing some issues that are making some missions too easy in some cases. Once we have those fixed we'll get a better sense of where the balance is before making more changes.

Dear Erik,

agree full that there is a terrible problem atm. I even would say, tech stealing and destruction projects are THE GAMEBREAKER in that game and ruin everything.

So please sit down with the team and find a solution
Wish you good brainstorming

PS: Most important is, that DISTANCE has a strong influence for , how long is needed and how much it cost . So your actual Hyperjump speed calculates , how long your spy needs !

[GHerr]

Love the suggestions

[Emperor0Akim]

No, please don't take my five-finger scientists from me
I like the possibility of buying back spies, and I like the suggestions of the first post.

Ingame I think it is possible for your spies to infiltrate known empires because there is trade and a population drift between
empires.
Trade especially, when pirates buy fuel at your stations a spy could infiltrate the ship and steal intelligence from there ... so no travel into enemy territory required.

But I agree it should be possible to only infiltrate empires with which you have an active interactions.

Also I think spies can be used as diplomatic and trade tools.

Spread Rumors about other empires,
Counteract bad relations
Steal Money,
Reroute Shipments ( Especially the big three come to mind, Loros Fruit, Korribian Spice, Zentabia Fluid )
Cause Mutinies on Ships
Convert Characters

and yes there should be tech that can influence the Trade.

Corruption, Corruption Modifiers can influence spywork
Percentage of Race/Number of Races
Distance
Trade Volume

I am out of Ideas for now.

[Harrish]

Love the spy game, but right now there aren't any real tradeoffs. Spies show up, I set my automation parameters, they bring me stuff. I don't really even think about it much.

It seems to me there should be more tradeoffs if you want to have a robust spy program. Some ideas:

Make spy networks an expense. Either have it as an allocation option for excess cash - so it competes directly with research and colony growth, or just have a ongoing cost associated with each spy and mission. some missions cost almost nothing (counterintel) others cost a lot (stealing tech) and take a long time, ending up costing a lot of cash. that way you have to invest in spies at the expense of other things. no more dabbling and still getting all the same rewards

Tie spy success to diplo research. covered by others in this thread, but it would provide more meaning to the diplo tech and make it more worthwhile. either gate some spy missions depending on tech level, or just have it factor into success rate.

Make stealing tech trigger a crash program on your current research, not provide you with free stuff. right now, stealing tech mostly serves to backfill stuff you bypass when you're focusing on other areas. I get most of my non-core early weapon tech this way, as well as a lot of other stuff I don't need immediately. It's honestly not that helpful, and just allows me to get everything eventually. I'd be more excited if my spy stole some stuff that boosted the research path I was focused on, and it would encourage me to take more risks and pay more to support the spy network. the boost could be tied to a lot of things, including diplo tech, spy level, counterespionage, etc.

Fixing the missions to make them harder will accomplish a lot, but it seems like there are some missed opportunities to make the spy part of the game more engaging.

[Emperor0Akim]

I prefer to steal Hyperdrives.

In DW:U my preferred strategy was to get gerax asap, find debris fields, send scavenger frigates and retire all the small ships for ressources and research.

[baldamundo]

Some good suggestions here, thanks Erendil, I've saved this post for when we get a chance to expand on this area.

We're focusing right now on fixing some issues that are making some missions too easy in some cases. Once we have those fixed we'll get a better sense of where the balance is before making more changes.

What do Intelligence sharing agreements do? The Galactopedia just says "the two empires agree to share intelligence data with each other", but i've not seen intelligence data explained as a concept anywhere else. Galaxy map sharing already covers exploration + operations map sharing does unit locations and mentions "better shared visibility of enemy units", so I'm not clear what's left for intelligence? Or does it cover stolen operations maps and Deep Cover intelligence missions?

Tie spy success to diplo research. covered by others in this thread, but it would provide more meaning to the diplo tech and make it more worthwhile. either gate some spy missions depending on tech level, or just have it factor into success rate.

Linking it to diplo tech is a great idea! Feel like it should probably affect colony approval too - can't be easy to govern a whole planet if you can't even speak their language!

[FlashXAron_slith]

Some good suggestions here, thanks Erendil, I've saved this post for when we get a chance to expand on this area.

We're focusing right now on fixing some issues that are making some missions too easy in some cases. Once we have those fixed we'll get a better sense of where the balance is before making more changes.

Hi Erik,
Small feedback

Okay started anew game with 1.0.2.0
AND MY MOD (that is an extra 10% to 20% counterespionage for ALL CIVS)

Oh I should have used a higher counterespionage buff ...

I AM STILL STEALING TECH LIKE CRAZY , from around 50 tries, I am only being caught around 5 times ...
and my mod is enabled !!!!!!!!!!!! so all have at least 10% higher counterespionage !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So mod should be 30% I think --- but too lazy to start a new game ...
_______________________________________________________________

as I am only early in the game, I was only stealing tech 0 and Tech 1
but it was easy af , with the noob spies !

So please could you change the values again, IT IS STILL TOO EASY and I am using my mod,
tech stealing ...

Thanks

____________________________________________________________________

EASY SOLUTION
AND WHY SO MANY SPIES, if they would be fewer, they wouldn't have that much impact !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have 5 and only 5 other leaders , max 3 spies would be enough , than they could be better, kije they are now

_______________________________________________________________

[Bleek]

The intelligence gameplay is too isolated from the rest of the game.

It doesn't take into account the distance to the target, the tech level of our and the target empire and the species.
There is also no events for intelligence like those for exploration.

First part, the distance :

It's illogic that you can send a spy in an empire too far away without the right warp tech and just for 12 month when it takes years for your ship to do the same.

You know what, I love this idea. Instead of the player having an arbitrary 3, 6 and 12 months - there should be a distance based time. I.e. 'this mission takes 17 months'.

Second part, the techs :

There is not tech to research for intelligence and counter intelligence.
Some techs could give a bonus like Stealth or scanners. Same with weapons research and Special ops (for sabotage skill).
A special tree for intelligence with prerequise from other techs (personal stealth device if you have research Stealth, garde room, blast doors for space stations to counter sabotage)

Agreed.

Third part, the Species :

So, a human spy can enter an alien empire and steal info without knowning their language.
Diplomacy research cound be used to give a bonus to the spy. The spy cound also get bonus if he do multiple missions in a specific empire but also could get known from them and his missions get harder.
If we chose to send a spy of a species of the target empire, the mission could become easier.

Ever heard of a false moustache and glasses? Spy school 101...

But in all seriousness - I really like the idea that certain mission types get a debuff because of race-face. Certain missions don't require the spy to be 'seen' so should have no malice, but deep cover certainly should!

Last part, the events :
It could be cool if we got intelligence events like arresting a spy or following him to get more infos, infiltrating a base using hacking or a false identity.
A spy could get new traits from those events.

Yeah - the prisoner system needs fleshing out.

Interrogate for basic info, such as a little bit of research.

Torture for far more info but get a negative modifier, depending on your race type. Might be malice from own pop or other races, or both.

Convert to double-agent - takes years, but could mean you get a permanent territory or galaxy map view on other empire once the spy is sent back.

Random events - spy killed by torture or double-agent by capture. These have bigger negative repercussions (risk/reward).

[FlashXAron_slith]

Agree in all points , that Spygameplay isn't worth the "thinking" quality of a DW game.
It really needs a more tactical gamedesign ...
it is still unbalanced, so a quick fix , that it hasn't that much influence as it has now ,
would be to reduce spies down to max 2

Also for god sake, WHY DO THE PIRATES HAVE ALL TECHS, it is like a shop, where you could steal without any consequences.
PLEASE remove that techs from the pirates. (simple lock the tech stealing from pirates)



So looking forward, what better ideas the devs have to improve that part of the game

[Erendil]

In my actual game, there is an assassination loop.
An other empire constanly get their leader killed :
20 death in less than 10 min at 4X time.

Same with a sabotage loop.

A similar solution to the empire reputation :

A spy is detected stealing tech -> tech stealing to that empire become way harder (high alert) then difficulty decrease over time but there still a permanent debuff (simulating an increase in counter intelligence technics against stealing).

[stww2]

I have two thoughts on intelligence based off what I've seen so far:

1) Intelligence should become easier the more connections you have with the target state. If you have an embassy at the target and constant merchant traffic going back and forth between your state and the target, that should create an environment that is a lot more conducive to espionage...if your species is a common sight on the streets of the target's capital, that's going to make it a lot easier to recruit and maintain contact with recruited agents. Maybe this is already abstracted?

2) There should be more ambiguity in intelligence information. I'm still early on in my first game, but from what I've encountered so far it seems like intelligence information is either perfect or non-existent. If I know about a target's fleet, then it seems I know the exact composition of the fleet and am able to view all of its ship designs. I think it would would add more to the game if such intelligence was frequently incomplete or had a chance of being inaccurate. You might know the target state had approximately x number of this or that ship class, and maybe you would know some aspects of their capabilities, but the knowledge wouldn't be perfect. You might know that the enemy fleet with approximately x number of ships, but not know its exact location. From what I've read of these subjects, a lot of military intelligence involves trying to devise enemy capabilities, deployments, and intentions from fragmentary information, and I think it would add more depth to the game if this sort of thing were a challenge that had to be dealt with in DW2.

But as I said, I'm not that far into the game yet, so maybe there is more complexity that I haven't picked up on yet?

[StormingKiwi]

I think this is a tricky subject.

However, the way it is now, espionage has the strong capability to be Technology Supermarket Simulator or Spaceport and Base Destruction Simulator with no real counterplay available. You're not being outplayed by a smarter AI, you're being out-rolled by a luckier RNG, and that's not great. Particularly when you anger a neighbour enough that they start spamming you with Research/Resort/Mining Station destroyed messages.

In short, Espionage as it currently stands is frustrating and not a good gameplay experience.

[Tanaka]

Some good suggestions here, thanks Erendil, I've saved this post for when we get a chance to expand on this area.

We're focusing right now on fixing some issues that are making some missions too easy in some cases. Once we have those fixed we'll get a better sense of where the balance is before making more changes.

Love all of the suggestions! Thank you Erik for working to improve the weakest part of the game!

[Thineboot]

Some good thoughts so far

Seems no one has noticed or felt entitled to point out that while you can use your spies to learn language and expressions, culture and customs, history and traditions, and immersion about any empire they can infiltrate they simply can't find a way to do the same at own colonies which joined your own empire by free will. They don't even have to disguise themselves as they can just walk freely among their fellow citizens but are still not able to learn anything. If this isn't the intention at least learn over time automatically all the diplomacy tech once you have colonized them.

[baldamundo]

Some good thoughts so far

Seems no one has noticed or felt entitled to point out that while you can use your spies to learn language and expressions, culture and customs, history and traditions, and immersion about any empire they can infiltrate they simply can't find a way to do the same at own colonies which joined your own empire by free will. They don't even have to disguise themselves as they can just walk freely among their fellow citizens but are still not able to learn anything. If this isn't the intention at least learn over time automatically all the diplomacy tech once you have colonized them.

Or just give you a research bonus!