Scenario 8 Variant's Deaniks(J) V Andy(A)

[deaniks]

So after the last game ended on Saturday I want to say. Andy and I went right to business starting a new variant game and let me say this game is very different from our last one. here are the variant rules we used.

[deaniks]

Negotiated varient's



Andy's Varient's






Moved my list

[godefroycz]

These are huge changes. I'll watch it, maybe sometimes I dare to play a variant as well. This is a new game.

[JanSako]

Wow, a completely new game, for sure!
Looking at what usually happens in late-game, I was wondering about something like this:

- improve IJN ASW capabilities - not sure if he did this by changing all those small ships to DD's? If they come with TYpe-2 DC's, that should be good enough!
- more DD's (always, right?) - that one is covered

- improve AAA to better deal with beasts - more heavy flak - I see he did that with the 127mm DP's, I would add them into Naval Guard units too! (if not too expensive). Or not if this already makes all army AA battalions/regiments become uber-OP CD units too.

- counter the around-the-clock-naval bombing runs - heavier naval guns for base forces, whatever is the heaviest that can still be moved.

- improve IJA ground capabilities - especially AT - will improving squads to '43 be enough? Not sure if better tanks or more AT guns would work better? I suppose you could even add an organic tank battalion into each INF div...

15 points 25 Ryujo to 44 - is that 25 new Ryujo CVL's? I fear that there is just too many capital ships (in general) to keep supplied with fuel...

[deaniks]

Revised list

395 pt's

Economy 78
E1 35 pts 2x30 Sam, 2x30 N1K1 George, 2x30 Frank A 2x30 J7W1, 1x30 Ki-44IIA

E2 9 pt's 2x30 Ha-43, 1x30 Ha-34

E4 4 pt's 50 oil HI

E5 4 pt's 15 repair yard Truk 15 repair yard Saipan.

E6 2 pt's 200k supplies.

E8 3 pt's 750k Oil

E10 9 pt's Ha-45 3/43, Ha-43 9/44

E11 3 pt's 750k HI

Speical 4 pt 200 Ha-34,Ha-33,HHa-32 and Ha-35 engine's to pool.

Base 4 pt's

B1 4 pt's Truks potential size of Airfield to 6

Air 57 pts

A1 4 pts Ki-44-IIA 7/42

A1 6 pts A7M1 3/45.

A1 5 pt's Ki-84a 11/43

A1 6 pts J7W1 6/45

A4 5 pt 50 pilot's in 41, 100 pilot's in 42, 100 pilot's 43

A15 8 pt's 50 G5M1, 50 A6M2 Float, 25 Ki-85R 50 Siren Float, 50 B5N2,

A17 8 pt's H-6 radar to 6/42

A19 10 pt's Lower J7W1 and FrankR Service rating by one.

A20 4 pt's 2 Traning groups.

Naval 168.5

N4 18 pts 9 Mogami to 43

N3 25 pts 25 Ryjuo to 44

N3 10 pts 10 Mogami to 44

N4 2 pts 40 Pt boat's to 43

N7 9.5 pts Junyo, Hiyo Kaga, Soryu to Shokaku

N7 8 pts 4 AV to CVL Ryjuo's

N2 2 pt's 2 AV to CS Chitose

N7 12 pts convert 12 CL's to Mogami.

N7 4 pts 4 CS to CVL Ryjuo's

N7 3.5 pts CVL to CVL Rujyo

N7 10 pts 10 CVEs to CVLs Rujo

N7 26 pt's 92 DD DD/TB/E/PG's/SC to DD's Shimikaze

N7 2.5 pts 10 SS to SS Type Sto

N7 1.75 pt's 7 Cargo Ship's AKE/APA

N7 5 pt's 20 Type C Escort

N9 4 pts move 4 ships

N10 18 pts Move 6 Tf

N15 1.75 pt's increase all 25knot BB classes currently active.

N17 5.6 pts Ansyu xPB 1000 troop.

Other 50 pts
O1 4 pts.

O2 1 pts.

O3 45 pt's Historical Research off.

Land 42.5 Pt's

L3 16 pts 12 Bdes of new 65th toe to late 42

L4 3 pts 3 Bdes of new 65th toe to 43

L8 6 pts Western Army, 12th Air Flotilla, 1st Air Div, 11th Air Flotilla, 13th Air Flotilla, 2nd Air Army,

L12 4 pts 7th Naval Con, 6th Naval con, 1st Naval Con 2nd Naval Con, 3rd Naval, 4th Naval, 5th Naval, 1st ind add extra 50 eng's to each.

L13 8 pts 70mm to 15cm

L13 8 pts 8cm/40 T88 AA gun to 12.7cm 3Yt DP Gun.

L15 0.5 pt 65th Brigade IJA HMG Section to IJA Engineer Squad.

L15 0.5 7.7mm T99 AAMG to 40MM T05 AA Gun(2)

L15 0.5 IJA inf to IJA inf 43.

[deaniks]

Wow, a completely new game, for sure!
Looking at what usually happens in late-game, I was wondering about something like this:

- improve IJN ASW capabilities - not sure if he did this by changing all those small ships to DD's? If they come with TYpe-2 DC's, that should be good enough!
- more DD's (always, right?) - that one is covered

(Yes I added in more Shimikaze's. Decent speed, decent ASW, and lots of torp's to Handle Andy's modern surface fleet.)

- improve AAA to better deal with beasts - more heavy flak - I see he did that with the 127mm DP's, I would add them into Naval Guard units too! (if not too expensive). Or not if this already makes all army AA battalions/regiments become uber-OP CD units too.

(way too many points the gun I upgrade comes in for most IJA AA regiments and should give a better impact on the war. )
- counter the around-the-clock-naval bombing runs - heavier naval guns for base forces, whatever is the heaviest that can still be moved.

(Hmmm Mabey but he can bombard from air and sea and just disable the Naval gun's so I feel it would be a waste of points.

- improve IJA ground capabilities - especially AT - will improving squads to '43 be enough? Not sure if better tanks or more AT guns would work better? I suppose you could even add an organic tank battalion into each INF div...

(well in reality you face more inf than tanks's so having a better soft attack could be better)

15 points 25 Ryujo to 44 - is that 25 new Ryujo CVL's? I fear that there is just too many capital ships (in general) to keep supplied with fuel...

( Yes well they only consume like 2400 Fuel per trip and are really nice raider's toward's the end of my last game 4 CVLs totally disrupted Andy's convoys. So having like an extra 25 plus what I converted Andy will need lots of Air guarding his convoys.)

[JanSako]

Do your Shimikaze-s come with Type-95's? If yes & he buys the reliable allied torps, you will be in trouble from the start... Can you bring Type 95-2 forward?
Agreed on the AAA, if those DP's go into IJA army AA batts, you should be good.

You are right that most units you are facing are infantry ones, but you do remember how the Chinese infantry feels when tank Deathstar shows up? If IJA could inflict more losses on allied tanks, that would make them commit more INF units which would give you a chance to inflict losses on the infantry as well. Right now the Allied player can just overrun you with tanks in '43-44, just like you do to the Chinese early on. The 'soft attack' in your troops won't matter in the 'schwerpunkt' cause you will be facing more tanks than the Germans did in Bagration (which is kinda insane by itself seeing that in the Burmese jungle if you ask me).

Maybe the solution is better Japanese tanks, not more of them. There is a variant for that, right?

About the fuel consumption, I meant a combination of all your capitals. You have more CV's, all your cruisers are CA's, you got a bunch more of them, a lot mode DD's (yeah, they do not burn so much). At the end it is up to you & if you think you can feed them all, go for it sir! You can always park them someplace in a dot base & use them as stationary airfields too!

[deaniks]

Do your Shimikaze-s come with Type-95's? If yes & he buys the reliable allied torps, you will be in trouble from the start... Can you bring Type 95-2 forward?
Agreed on the AAA, if those DP's go into IJA army AA batts, you should be good.
(He did not do working allied torpedo so all is good here can't say if my dds have then or not will look when I get home)
You are right that most units you are facing are infantry ones, but you do remember how the Chinese infantry feels when tank Deathstar shows up? If IJA could inflict more losses on allied tanks, that would make them commit more INF units which would give you a chance to inflict losses on the infantry as well. Right now the Allied player can just overrun you with tanks in '43-44, just like you do to the Chinese early on. The 'soft attack' in your troops won't matter in the 'schwerpunkt' cause you will be facing more tanks than the Germans did in Bagration (which is kinda insane by itself seeing that in the Burmese jungle if you ask me).
(Japanese inf have 25 hard attack in 43 for the most part so that should be OK enough to handle tanks)
Maybe the solution is better Japanese tanks, not more of them. There is a variant for that, right?
(Yes but after my last game very point expensive and I was using way to many for vehicles)
About the fuel consumption, I meant a combination of all your capitals. You have more CV's, all your cruisers are CA's, you got a bunch more of them, a lot mode DD's (yeah, they do not burn so much). At the end it is up to you & if you think you can feed them all, go for it sir! You can always park them someplace in a dot base & use them as stationary airfields too! (well yes lots of fuel consumption but raiding and using them on banking charges late game should save me fuel)

[Nomad]

395 points plus the specials at the top. That is a heck of a game.

The Sam and Franks factories with engine factories will be huge.

[deaniks]

our major turn one rule is that only carriers can strike port plus no carrier hunting and Andy's carriers start at Darwin where
3 CV's
1CVL
1 BB
6 CA's
17 DD's

I need to position myself in a way to corner him while still trying to do the utmost damage Manilla needs to be hit. Pearl needs to be damaged at least 4 fewer BBs mean's I can get into other ships like DDs and Cruisers and which are all good to kill. ok well Striking Sydney Perth Sorebaja and such will leave Andy very few places for his carrier fleet to go through

[Xargun]

How can you afford all those new ships? Or don't you have to build them?

Xargun

[deaniks]

How can you afford all those new ships? Or don't you have to build them?

Xargun

that was a problem I talked to Andy a lot about the economy last game he said I added basically no surface ship which I did and so this game as can be seen I added a lot.

So talking Andy's said he has 10 Modern BBs in the first 3 months I said ya not very possible for Japan so in March of 42, he gave me 2 Kongo BBs, 7 CL Kitakmai Ironman CLs plus on top of that 500,000 Naval points to start off with. So the ship's yard still needs to be expanded due to 500,000 could only last me a year with all my new additions.

Next was Fuel I brought it up to him that even if I spent 3 point's on 300k fuel that would not cover the extra 50 to 60 new ships added in so we increase the refiner's production from 9 fuel to 10 fuel so slightly better fuel eco but sill need to be careful.
Next, we increase HI production from 2 Supplies to 3 supplies same reason the total extra of all my ships plus the 15 extra brigades will put a huge strain on my eco plus he removed his China supply and added in more ships due to China now producing a lot more. In total I hope with these addition total eco collapse won't happen but never know

[deaniks]

Eco at Start

[deaniks]

Japanese Ship Numbers



Allied Ship Numbers

[deaniks]

395 points plus the specials at the top. That is a heck of a game.

The Sam and Franks factories with engine factories will be huge.

Yes I speculated this

Tojo April 42 hopefully earlier since he's building 95 P-40E's a month

Frank's around September 42, Frank R sometime early 43 and it has a 2 service rating.

George's August 42, probably stopping at George 2 due to service rating.

Sam's between April and June 43

J7W1 sometime around June- September 43 also service rating 2.

Andy's Reinforcement fleet in the first 2 years.

6 CVs, 6 CVLs, 7 CVEs in 42

11 CVs 14 CVE and 5 CVLs in 43

Mine Reinforcement fleet in first two years.

2 CV 8 CVLs in 42

3 CVLs in 43

then 44 is my crazy year 25 CVLs 5 CV most of which will be accelerated in 43 so let's say an extra 15 CVLs and 5 CVs in 43

43 5 CVs and 18 CVLs possible total

[godefroycz]

I watch this and I think I have confirmed my opinion that the massive use of points for a variant could break the game. I think 100 or max. 150 points is OK to refresh the game and I don't reject it . This can help eliminate some weaknesses on both sides. I am curious about the course of the game and I hope there will be a regular AAR. Maybe next time I'll start a variant, but only for significantly fewer points.

[Nomad]

I don't think it will break the game, but one thing I would ask for is that the ending of the game be changed from May 29, 1946 to December 31, 1946 to give the Allies more time to bring their good things to the table.

[deaniks]

I don't think it will break the game, but one thing I would ask for is that the ending of the game be changed from May 29, 1946 to December 31, 1946 to give the Allies more time to bring their good things to the table.

Ya plus the option of Adding in 46 ships for dirt cheap Allies can buy an additional 100's of ships in if needed.

[Nomad]

Looking at things, you will have aircraft in 1943 that he will not have a complete answer to until mid to late 1945, so he will need time to put them into the field and use them.

And of course there is validity in Stalin's axiom, "Quantity has a Quality all its own." ( Well, it has been attributed to him, but it might not be one of his quotes )

[deaniks]

Looking at things, you will have aircraft in 1943 that he will not have a complete answer to until mid to late 1945, so he will need time to put them into the field and use them.

And of course there is validity in Stalin's axiom, "Quantity has a Quality all its own." ( Well, it has been attributed to him, but it might not be one of his quotes )

Ya I think after this game certain Japanese planes might need to be banned with varient's

I guess I should have talked with him about it first but he never said anything about it so I assume he wants to see how it works out.