German Flak Regiments are busted

[jubjub]

They literally just kill everything.

[AlbertN]

That they're. 88s were lethal - but not many are produced in general.

And it requires a bucket of micromanagement because IF used offensively (as per forgot in a unit that is attacking) they get pounded into oblivion because the attacker struggles and AA fires bad.
Good for static defense? Yes. Well it's a unit loaded with pieces of artillery.

Germany has its quirks - still small - over Soviets that can pratically fit an additional division in each Corp due to allowing 3 SUs in...

Germany has a very limited amount of Flak Regiments, and they churn out like 15 88s a turn (or 25 do not remember now).

Tip: Add bombers to your attack.

[jubjub]

Lol about the bombers. I'm not going to talk about the air war.

And your point may be valid in the '41 campaign. However, StB has 88's in abundance. Not only is there the issue below - receiving hundreds of extra flak 88 guns as reinforcements, but all of the flak regiments in WE, flak towers, etc. start the game filled up in StB so they don't suck up all of the production (25/turn) like they do in the '41 campaign.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6#p4987606

[Jango32]

There are no regiments in the second screenshot.

[Zebtucker12]

The 88 was good yes.
But more hits than the mortars?

[Stamb]

i like jubjub's streams

especially when he checks AA lvl and is saying that no way he is going to attack that units

now i understand why

[AlbertN]

What I meant by send in bombers, is that they bomb the AA stuff (the bombers surviving); and I assume / believe then the AA is steadily less efficient when firing on the ground in defense.

[jubjub]

There are no regiments in the second screenshot.

It came with a reserve reaction. Trust me, it's there.

[Stamb]

i can confirm, saw it on a replay

this is how you make a trap:
1. hide some unit with flak regiment somewhere in the back.
2. put it in reserve mode.
3. kill thousands of Soviets that are not even able to spot it, cuz it is hidden far from a front line

[Stamb]

i think new house rule incoming

[K62_]

The 88mm FlaK guns were very effective in ground combat, and why is this news? Rommel used them to great effect against British tanks at Arras and in the Western Desert. Model used them to great effect against American infantry in the Huertgen Forest. They were so effective against ground targets that a crash program adapted them as the main gun for the Tiger, which was definitely not an AA platform.

[DarkHorse2]

I suspected that the German Flak Regiments were going to be fairly effective used here.

Just to reassure the Soviet players, to use them in this manner comes at a big cost to the German player. You should not see too many on the Eastern front as a result.

There are big AP costs associated with redeploying them from cities.

The few that do trickle in as reinforcements, take a while to accumulate enough TOE elements to make them useful in the tactical sense.

And finally, WiTE2 seems to anticipate them being deployed to the various TBs to augment the Air stats. If they are being directed to the Eastern Front instead, the Germans have to make up for it somehow, most likely by moving Fighter AOGs there, in its place -or- suffer bad theatre box events.

I also highly suspect (but have nothing yet to support it), that Germany will have a hard time keeping the Flak Regiments in the field for long due to difficulty in meeting their TOE losses. Also know they are going to be very supply hungry, consuming a lot of supplies while attached.

But hey, it was cool seeing them in action...

[Jango32]

Surely most losses for soft targets, such as infantry and lightly armoured vehicles, should come from indirect fire artillery and not direct fire AA guns though.

[Stamb]

There are at least 4 flak regiments that you can transfer from a WE for 0 AP.
Its turn 60+.

[Denniss]

I hope the game prevents those static Flak Rgts from being sent to support combat units in battle, they are supposed to protect and defend cities. Without organic transport a combat usage would only be permittable by paying with AP and an insane number of trucks for temporary motorization.

[Stamb]

it does not

1.png (1.3 MiB) Viewed 1235 times

[DarkHorse2]

Surely most losses for soft targets, such as infantry and lightly armoured vehicles, should come from indirect fire artillery and not direct fire AA guns though.

Well, they are direct fire. Losses tend to be higher from direct fire weapons on a per round fired basis.

Losses from artillery fire requires more rounds fired and saturation of the target area.

The range on those 88's is really good.

Effective range: 14,810 m (16,200 yds) ground target, 7,620 m (25,000 ft) effective ceiling

not sure how they are listed in the game data though

there were more artillery pieces than 88's. so I would expect the artillery would, overall, cause more casualties as many battles won't have any 88's at all.

But on a piece-by-piece basis? I would have a hard time predicting which weapon system would come out on top.

[DarkHorse2]

There are at least 4 flak regiments that you can transfer from a WE for 0 AP.
Its turn 60+.

My recollection comes from turn 1 of GC.

What is the German production rate of those 88's? How many flak regiments can Germany effectively maintain in the field I wonder?

[Stamb]

25 per turn

1.png (6.7 KiB) Viewed 1213 times

and there are 42 units with that type

i dont know if you can unattach them from a city and move to OKH, but if you can
then its game over

2.png (1.21 MiB) Viewed 1213 times

[Stamb]

it costs 50 AP to remove them from a city and return to OKL
then you can transfer them to OKH
and then to a units
voila

Players, please do not abuse it. I hope it will be fixed.